Episode #4: Kareen Phanos

Kareen Phanos, originally from Ghana, is pursuing a Ph.D. in Spanish Linguistics at Arizona State University, where she has been since 2022. She is a speaker of six languages: Fante, Twi, English, Spanish, French, and Portuguese. Her research interests include sociolinguistics and natural language processing. Outside of school, Kareen likes to travel and engage in photography. 

In this episode, we talk discuss the linguistic landscape of Ghana. Specifically, we discuss pidgin English in Ghana, its situatedness in society, and how it evolves over time. Kareen describes how she became interested in learning Spanish and eventually pursued simultaneous undergraduate degrees in French and Spanish, which led to her studying abroad in Cuba. We then discuss a nonprofit organization of which Kareen is a co-founder, ConnectED Ghana. Consider following ConnectED Ghana on Instagram @connected.gh

© Hunter Langenhorst, creator of The Language & Life Podcast. All rights reserved. Episodes, audio recordings, original music, and artwork are protected by copyright law. Unauthorized reproduction or distribution is prohibited without written permission.

Transcript

Linguistic landscape of Ghana

Hunter 0:18

Hi, Kareen.

Kareen 0:19

Hi, Hunter.

Hunter 0:21

So there are a lot of reasons I wanted to talk to you. Namely that you're one of my best friends in the PhD program we're in at ASU. Um, but also you're multilingual in the truest sense of the word. How many languages do you speak?

Kareen 0:33

Five, I think. And those are Fante, Twi, English, Spanish, French, and Portuguese.

Hunter 0:45

One, two, three, four, five, six. I think so, yeah. Yeah, okay. So Fante one, Tree, two, English, three, Spanish, four, Portuguese, five, French, six.

Kareen 0:58

Yeah.

Hunter 0:59

Wow. Wow. And which ones did you grow up speaking first that you remember? Because I know it wasn't just one.

Kareen 1:06

Yeah. So I think in my household, I probably when I was young, I probably was hearing more of um Fante and Tree, just because I was living in a predominantly Fante um area. And then my grandpa, he kind of grew up with the Twi language. So he spoke to my mom and his other kids in Twi. So I grew up hearing that. But my mom would exclusively, I think everyone exclusively spoke to me in Fante, right? And then my mom had friends who did not speak um either Twi or fancy. So they would speak English. And then on the television, it was mostly English. And the books they would buy for me, it was mostly English. So my mom is a teacher. So I think I don't remember when, but I know that I started learning to read and write at a very, very young age, just because she's an educator. So I don't remember a time when I did not understand English or a time when I did not speak English. So I would say that I probably grew up with all three. I just know that with English, my mom made the consented effort to teach me how to read and write it. Just because when you turn on the television, most of the channels um work in English. So I think that's how it is. And I think that's probably how it is for most Ghanaians. Because you turn on the TV, you turn on the radio station, and it's most likely going to be English, just because it's a multicultural and multilingual context. So you have to reach most of the populace, and you can't just stick to one language, even though there are channels for just like a specific native language.

Hunter 2:48

So I think one question most people might have when they're listening right now is what is Fante and what is Twi and where are they spoken? How many people speak them? In what context? Things like that.

Kareen 3:00

Okay, so Fante is my native language. It's um a language spoken by the Fantees in Ghana. It's a tribe, right? It's a language and a tribe. Like the people speak Fante and the people are called Fantees. And we're in the western side of the country, um, when the rest western region, and then Twi is like the dominant language in Ghana. It's spoken by almost everyone. So usually if you have people from different tribes meeting, they would resort to Twi, and then if one of them doesn't speak Twi, they would resort to English. That's how it mostly works. So um Twi, again, it's spoken by most Ghanaians and it's by the Ashanti, it's for or it's off the Ashanti people in Ghana, the Ashanti Empire, they're quite popular because when the British came down to Ghana to colonize us, they were the most resistant tribal group. So they're quite like known for um their tenacity and their they're quite I'd say they're quite a strong-willed people. So that's the Twi language for you. And yeah, I think English is just because we were colonized by the British, so that's how come we speak English in Ghana.

Hunter 4:15

And if people wanted to look up one of these languages, could you spell it out in in English for them?

Kareen 4:20

So Fante is spelled with an F A N T E and then Tree is T W I. Right, yeah, that's how it goes.

Hunter 4:31

And are either of those languages spoken in neighboring countries to Ghana? Is it kind of bleed over the border a little bit, or is it really specific to Ghanaian borders within Ghanaian?

Kareen 4:42

Yeah, I would say because of the location, it's spoken within Ghana. Now the the I'd say um eastern, western, northern. I don't know what side of the country the the aways are, but I know the away language goes across the Ghanaian border because just because we border Togo. So when you enter Togo, you find that side of the Togolese country speaking Away. But then um the western side of Ghana where I come from, it's bordered by the sea. So it's like you don't find neighboring countries speaking. There are no neighboring countries, I guess. So yeah, is it bordered by the sea? I don't think so. Now that I think about it, I don't know, but we you don't hear Fante beans spoken. You'd rather hear NZMA spoken when you cross the Ghanaian border. And then Zima, I don't know, their tribe, they are quite close to where I'm from. But I don't know how come, but then in Ivory Coast, they do speak. Some parts of Ivory Coast does speak in Zima. And I would say tri. And I don't know why, because the Ashanti region is not like a border tribe, but somehow, somehow it's spoken in Ivory Coast. So yeah, but not Fancy. I wouldn't think Fancy is booking outside of Ghana. I could be wrong though, but yeah.

Hunter 6:10

So you said that your mom made a concerted effort to teach you English, and is that the principal way through which you feel that you learned English, or was it also just in the school system? How basically, how is the English learning process for the average Ghanaian, um, given that it's such a widespread spoken language across the country?

Kareen 6:29

So I would say that it probably would depend on the house you're coming from, because I have heard of Ghanaians who don't speak English. I've personally not met any, but I've heard that there are Ghanaians who don't speak English. So they would probably resort to a local language when you're speaking to them. And for them, I would say that's probably because they've well, it's not probably, they've not been to school, so that's why they've not had access, right? And then in those areas, my best guess is that when it comes to TV stations or radio stations, they probably use the language that is native to them. But then where I come from, I think growing up, most of my friends also knew English. I don't know how that worked for them. But again, I would say my mom taught me English, she bought me books in English, the TV stations were in English, and I don't know if it's also because I come from a family where everyone has been to school, so you hear a little bit of code switching, like when I say code switching in the sense of people switching between languages. So you have but speaking Twi, and then I switch into fancy, and then I come back into English, and then sometimes we'll go into um um Twi, and then yeah, that's just how it went. So in the Ghanaian context, I don't know if majority of Ghanaians, I don't have the statistics, so I don't know if majority of Ghanaians learn English in school or just something that they pick up growing up. But then I can speak to pidgin, which is like um pigeon English. We call it pidgin. It's it's like a local variety of the English language to the Ghanaian people, and it's usually used by the by the men in the society or the guys or the boys in the society. Those ones, people pick them up even though they've not been to school. I don't know if it's because of it's I think it's because it's a sTwit version of the English language. So the men or the boys are able to pick it up just because it's a boy thing to to know how to speak pigeon. Right? But for girls, I don't know what happens to us if we've not been to school. If because you don't care Ghanaian girls using pigeon. It's like strictly, almost strictly a thing that guys use or a language guys use. And maybe that tomboys would also learn to use pigeon, but it's not something that girls grow up learning to speak.

Hunter 8:56

That's so interesting. That can index like a gender identity, the usage of the pigeon. And maybe we should kind of collectively define what that is, because I'm if the average person is listening and they hear the word pigeon, they might think, interesting, a bird. No, that's not the pigeon we mean. A pigeon forms when there are multiple languages or sometimes multiple varieties of the same language in contact with each other, and people kind of essentially just figure out ways to communicate, borrowing uh certain lexical and grammatical items uh and structures from multiple languages at the same time in a way that works for them. So you're saying in Ghana there's a higher prevalence of the men speaking this pidgin, this mix of English that that shares features, perhaps lexical and grammatical features from the local languages, and maybe I don't know, even from French, if people are kind of coming from Côte d'Ivoire.

Kareen 9:54

Maybe I don't not French, not French. I wouldn't say French, but then I'd say maybe people also pick from the Nigerian version of pigeon, the Nigerian pidgin English, just because of the Nigerian movies and songs that are played in Ghana. So the Ghanaian pidgin borrows from Nigerian pidgin and then the structure of the local languages within that context. And then funny enough, it's something that you wouldn't find very common in the Ashanti region. And I think again, it's because their language is so dominant that they don't see the need to really adopt pigeon. Because boys usually, my brother, we grew up in the shanti region. I think most yeah, we grew up large way, yeah. We spent most most of our lives in the shanti region, and my brother didn't speak pigeon until he went to high school, and he went to high school in the coastal region, Cape Coast, and that's where he picked it up. Because in Kumase, it's it's just Twi. No one Kumase is a city in the Ashanti region, so it's like Tempe is a city in Arizona, so yeah. So in Kumasi, people just speak Twis. Like, if you don't speak Twi, everyone looks at you like, How are you living here and you don't speak Twi? People would rather not speak English. So my brother, again, he didn't pick up pigeon until he went to high school, and then he came, he comes back to Kumase, and his friends who went to high school in Kumase still did not pigeon. And to this day, they still don't know pigeon because it's not something that is used in the Ashanti region. But you go to the coastal region, you went, you go to Western region, you go to um the capital, which is Accra, and then it's something that's it's it marks like a boyhood something, and they mostly would pick it up. If a guy hasn't picked it up like in his form in his formative years, he most definitely would pick it up in high school. Because it's like a boy thing to learn how to you pick it up in high school, and then they go to university and they graduate, and it's like something that's oh, when the men meet, they are mostly speaking in pidgin, not in a local language, it's mostly going to be in pidgin.

Hunter 12:04

That's really fascinating. So is it spoken in certain social settings in particular? Like, would it be spoken at a party, but maybe not at a at a work meeting, or is it spoken across the board?

Kareen 12:17

It is spoken across the board. So if my brother went to work, assuming my brother were a professor at ASU, assuming ASU is in Ghana, if he met with one of the professors, they would most likely like speak in pidgin. It's like a boy thing. I don't know. I think that's how men bond. So like they would see each other, they would dab, and then like they just start speaking it. But then assuming um someone from a different country, if it's like in a very extremely, extremely formal context, they would speak English. But then on a day to day, I come into work, everything I'll see Hunter just speaking pigeon, and then we'll go about our way. Unless we met a guy, let's say someone from Kumase, who doesn't speak pigeon, in that case would speak Twi, or if one of us doesn't speak Twi, would speak in English. That's how it works.

Hunter 13:10

So, in your experience as a woman, what kind of effects does that have on women in the workplace if the pigeon is primarily between men and even across all types of social settings in the workplace and in informal situations? Does that kind of have an effect of excluding women, would you say? I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't feel in the in-group, so to speak.

Kareen 13:34

I don't think it has an effect on women. Because I could walk into a room full of guys, they would be speaking English. I could be friends with them, but once they're addressing me, they would that they would speak to me in regular English, like formal English. And then even if I wanted to comment or say something to someone, I would respond to the person in English, they would respond to me back in in English, and then once they are speaking to someone else who's a guy, they would switch to pigeon. So I understand pigeon, it's just not something I know how to speak. Even if I spoke it, it would sound weird, just because it's not something that I use fluently. So I would probably be able to put the words together. I just was wouldn't flow off my tongue, right? And then it's also something that I don't think well, I could let me speak for me and then my group of friends. I don't think it's something that a girl aspires to speak. It's I don't know, just it's just something like, oh, it's boys that do it. So if you hear a girl speaking English, it's mostly someone who's a tomboy, right? Because they hang out with guys, they play basketball, it's like they're always in the mix. I have male friends, but I'm not a tomboy. So my friends wouldn't speak to me. My male friends wouldn't speak to me in pidgin. It's going to be in English or a local language. But everywhere, like a tomboy, they they definitely would speak to them in in pidgin.

Hunter 14:57

That's really interesting. It has the power to like index gender identity. And by index, I mean point to or kind of represent or uh express that's sort of what I mean by index, gender identity.

Kareen 15:10

I know because would even in high school, so in Ghana, we have um our high school system is mostly boarding. We do have day systems. Like when I say day systems, does it make sense to you? Like, oh, I go home, I go to school and I come back home. That's the day system. The the day system like a routine or something. A routine school system. But then boarding system, it's you go into the school and you don't come out until we've vacated. So you're just there, you sleep. And so that's how our system is. Mostly, that's how most of us, well, maybe not most of us, but I think in my experience, everyone goes to boarding school. So in boarding school, like I said, the guys go there, they pick up pigeon. It's like something that's I don't know if it's an initiation, right, or something, but they come out and they speak pigeon. But then you go to the girls' school, it's just formal English, but then you pick up certain um certain words, certain ways of speaking that just also marks you as a girl. Like there are certain things that girls, when I'm speaking to my friend Beatrice, like would use it just because we're girls and we went to Boarding House, but boys wouldn't speak English like that. So there's a way that we speak that would also mark, oh, this is this is ladies' talk, this not this is how girls talk. This is not how you'd expect my brother to speak English. Because everyone would look at you like, what? Something like clock it, right? Let me just use that. That's um an international thing right now. But assuming we were in Ghana, clock it isn't something that boys would say to each other.

Hunter 16:43

Clock it?

Kareen 16:44

Yeah, like clock, you know, the hunting.

Hunter 16:47

Oh, I don't know if I'm familiar with that. No. Oh my god, hunter. I know, it's probably really popular.

Kareen 16:53

It is, it is like clock it, like you ate, something like that.

Hunter 16:58

Oh, I know that. But clock it, I don't think I've heard that.

Kareen 17:01

Oh, hunter. Interesting. I feel like I'm more American than you are, then. All right. So, um, yeah, so that's something that girls would do, but then men wouldn't use India in India vocabulary, they just wouldn't use it when they're interacting with each other. So that's the thing. And then it's funny enough, you also go into the the mixed school system. So we have the all guy, all male, all female, and then we also have the mixed school systems, and you'd find that they come out and then the guy speaks pidgin, and then the girls don't speak pidgin. They just speak like the feminine version of English, and then like, which is like usually the standard form of English, right?

Hunter 17:43

In Ghana at least.

Kareen 17:44

Yeah, in Ghana, or like standard English. You know how I don't know, in sociolinguistics, we learned something about how women tend to speak the standard variety of a language, perhaps just um more prestigious features.

Hunter 17:58

Yeah, right. The features that kind of carry a bit more prestige into the city.

Kareen 18:02

I think that's the perfect way to describe it. So yeah, so girls would come out and then we went to a mid school, we started off in the same year, but then guys come out and you're like, yo, what's up? Like, this is again, I I'm not a fluenced pigeon speaker, but they do have a way of saying it, and then the girls wouldn't meet someone who went to the same school and then meet a guy and be like, yo, what's up, or something like that. No.

Hunter 18:27

Hmm. So, how much of the pigeon, according to what you know and have experienced, do you think is a mix of the of English and the local languages, or just like diaphasic variation, like, you know, depending on the social situation in terms of formality and informality? Because I mean, we see that sort of variation with um people across glob you know, in global Englishes across the world, using things like I guess yo and what's up, right? If the situation is informal, or maybe I guess if it's between young men or something, I don't know. But yeah.

Kareen 19:09

Okay. So one thing that it's this is related. It's not exactly answering your question, but it's related. But one thing I have noticed as a linguist when it comes to Ghanaian pigeon is that my uncle's generation of pigeon is easier to understand than my brother's generation of pigeon. So I think that with time it's getting more complex. And then there have been cases where Nigerians have been to Ghana and they're like, why is Ghanaian pigeon so difficult? Because the Nigerian pigeon is so loose. If I played it to you, I believe you'd get most of what they're saying. But then the Ghanaian pigeon, I don't know how or why, but again, like I said, you go to boarding school, you pick it up. And then in boarding school, you have diff people from different cultural backgrounds coming in there. So um now that's 16, but then I grew up in a Ghana where there were 10 regions. So I'm going to use that as my reference, right? So you have a country with 10 regions, that's like 10 states, right? And people from different regions apply to go to a certain senior high school. Everyone wants to go to the prestigious one. So let's say, assuming Harvard is a senior high school. So you have people all across the United States applying to get into Harvard. So once we get into Harvard, you have people from every single state in the US in there. And then they are all coming together to pick up this pidgin form. So I wouldn't really necessarily say that pigeon is mostly influenced by, let's say, the Ghana language or the fancy language or ex-language. It's more like a merger of all the different languages. And what I've noticed is that it's not necessarily with the the um vocabulary, the individual words, it's more with the structure of the language, right? So um I'm trying to think of an example, but let's say um in Twi, I would say um the broom is holding me. Because the Twi language, that's if you translate it to English, that's technically what it is saying. Instead of I'm holding the broom, it translates to the broom is holding me. So this structure is what would become the pidgin language. So in pigeon, again, this this one I'm making up. So if we were speaking in in pigeon, I wouldn't say I'm holding the broom, I'll say the broom is holding me. So I'm speaking English, but then it's based off the Twi structure, and then sometimes it's based off a Ghana structure, or I don't know airway, so I'm just going to someone could correct me, but maybe it would also be based off an airway structure. Airway is also a different language in Ghana, just because you have people from different language backgrounds, and then they're all coming together to form this pigeon variety of English. So it's mostly based on structure, but then as if we're in Accra, which is the capital of Ghana, and over there the language, the the Ghana language is the the language of the of the Ghans who are in Accra. You'd find that there are certain words in there. That's Agar, like they would say, like this bekke, which is like this evening, right? Or like your hair trunk, something there are certain things that there are certain words that uh come from whatever dominance language is there that that influences the pidgin language. But if we went to the western region, which is where or the coastal range region, which is where Fante is spoken, you'd find that the pidgin is mostly influenced by the Fante language just because of the dominance group in there, right? So that's how it usually works. But again, it's mostly influenced by structure and not lexicon, but you would still find lexical influences in there.

Hunter 23:01

What about phonetics? Do sounds kind of mix together at all? Or I guess do the among the different local languages in Ghana and the tribal languages, is the phonetic inventory, so to speak, similar? Or are some sounds like super different? You know, like in we don't have the German R in English, it's really hard for us, for example.

Kareen 23:29

I I I can't really speak to the phonetic aspect, but then I would say that the different languages have different um sounds, they're not equal. Because if I speak English, people I I believe any Ghanaian listening would be able to tell that I'm probably a can or they'd probably say I'm Fante, just because sometimes when an Ashanti person speaks English, you are able to tell that this person is a Kumase person, this person is from Kumase, right? If a girl spoke English, I'd be able to tell just because they they tend to drop their H's, so they don't pronounce their H sound. So if they're saying I want to heat up my food, they would say I want to eat up my food. So you'd be able to tell that this person is Gan. And there are certain sounds that are also exclusive. I don't know if it's exclusive, maybe the awesome do. I don't really hear a lot of away because of the side of Ghana that I'm at, but the Ghan language, they have these G B sounds. So G and B come together. It's not something that I can pronounce because it's not, it doesn't exist in my phonetic inventory, right? So, like I said, like the example I gave, they were like this, they are like this beketi. I'm probably not saying it right because I don't know how to say G and B put together, right? So there are differences. So as a Ghanaian, I'm able to tell if this is an air talking or this is a fancy talking or this is a per an ex-person talking, right? But sometimes it's difficult because I would say that sometimes you speak English and then people know, oh, you're from here, and then they treat you different just because of the way you speak English. So assuming someone came from the US, like if Beatrice, my friend Beatrice, if she went to Ghana and then she spoke English with like um an American accent and everything, she would get better treatment. Unfortunately, that's how it is in Ghana, right? So my mom was very big on don't speak like that. This is how these people speak. So this is not how you pronounce this word, that's not how you say this, those kind of things, some just so that we speak in quotes proper English, I guess. But yeah, so sometimes it's a bit difficult for people to tell where I'm from just because my mom worked on certain things just so we don't sound a certain way. But usually if someone like pays really close attention, they're going to be able to guess where you're from, right? I see.

Hunter 26:00

So your it sounds like your mom was really in tune with what kinds of linguistic features kind of index again to use that word, um prestigious types of identities, social identities, and she wanted you you as children to to use the ver the features that gave you some social capital, I guess. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Gave you a higher standing in society, you get better treatment. Unfortunat that's an unfortunate reality. I think across the world, not just in the US, not just in Ghana, but in every society. I think there is linguistic variation and certain people use features that for better, you know, not for better, for worse, that, but rather for worse, uh, are negatively judged arbitrarily. Um what's inter what's also interesting, and people, the linguists listening, might be wondering like, it sounds like at this point what you're what we're talking about isn't so much a pigeon anymore, insofar as it's, you know, an intergenerational thing. People have been speaking this for for decades. So they might be wondering, is this not perhaps better termed a creole? But I don't know. For me, the the distinct the distinction between a pigeon and a creole is difficult, uh challenging. Um it's difficult to know at which at what point it transfers and suddenly you can box it in in the nice shiny box of a creole. I I don't know. What I'm hearing as you're talking is that the pigeon is constantly in motion, constantly in evolution, being updated uh with each generation. And you use the word complex, getting more complex. So what do you think about that whole distinction?

Kareen 27:41

So one thing I think it's worth mentioning here that I think sometimes definitions change or they loosen when you cross a certain context, right? I'm sorry, border. So I have um spoken to Jonathan once, he's in our PhD program, I mean he's in our Spanish program, and he's a heritage learner, and then he calls himself a heritage learner, but to me he's not. Because in the US, as if Fante or if my the languages in Ghana were spoken here, I probably would be considered a heritage um fancy speaker, just because I didn't grow up entirely in the fancy land, and then also in my household, we didn't exclusively speak fancy, like fancy and Twi, and then you also hear crawl ball in there. So I would be determined a heritage learner if a heritage language speaker if I were in the US. But then if I go to Ghana, I'm a herit I'm I'm a native fancy speaker. So the heritage, the term who is a heritage speaker, if we went to Ghana would have a completely different definition. Just because I would classify Jonathan as a native Spanish speaker, but he doesn't consider himself himself a heritage speaker just because of his um where he grew up and then his his background or his um experience with the language. So the same thing with pigeon. I think that maybe our definition of a pigeon is different from what maybe um linguists would call a pigeon, right? So I tend to try not to um impose definitions on or certain definitions I've learned as someone in a PhD program on the way my people back home would interpret it, right? Just because to us, a creole is like a creole. What's you know, the languages we determine as creole, that is it. You would never look at pigeon and be like, oh, it's a creole. Because to us, like when you say creole, is it's those languages. It's us is not a creole, it's a pigeon. So that that's my take on that. I don't know that it's a it's a perfect response to your question, but there's no such thing as a perfect response.

Hunter 29:59

It's really interesting though, what you were saying. And thinking about what a heritage speaker, at least of Spanish, means in the United States, what I think what you're saying is really thought-provoking because first of all, I think what scholars of heritage languages in the US try to avoid is rigidly boxing people in. Yet this term heritage speaker is a useful concept. Um, and as far as we uh understand heritage speakers of Spanish in the US, they're identifiable and definable, I guess, in comparison to the greater backdrop of English as the dominant language in the United States for business and for politics and for education. But I think what you're saying is important to take into consideration that Ghana is so richly multilingual at all levels of society that there's not one linguistic backdrop uh against which to compare, like, oh, am I a heritage speaker or am I just a um native speaker, a native multilingual user of multiple languages? So yeah, I can see how it's probably more difficult to single out, like, oh, I'm a native speaker with these languages, but because X, Y, Z reasons, I'm a heritage speaker. Yeah.

Kareen 31:23

Because like I'm going to say Beatrice again. Beatrice is Fante just because so as human, so depending on the tribe, right? Someone could be Fante or an Ashanti or a Ga. So we have this, uh, this is hard to translate to English, but like there are certain tribes who are like matrilineal, and there are certain tribes that are patrilineal. So Beatrice says dad is Fante and her mom is gone, and the Gas are patrilineal, and then the Fantees are matrilineal, right?

Hunter 31:59

Could you define those terms?

Kareen 32:01

So matrilineal such that if I were to inherit it's mostly like the inherit you inherit from your mother's side or you inherit from your your paternal side, right? Got it. And then assuming one of your parents died, let's say right now, my mom is fancy, my dad is fancy. Well, my mom, it's a lot because there's a lot of intermarriage going on and on her side. But I'm going to just say my mom is fancy, my dad is fancy. Assuming my dad died, God forbid, the family would say, Oh, you're supposed to go to your mom's side because your tribe is matrilineal. But if my mom were married to a Ga, I think the Gas are paternal. So if my dad died, they would give their kids to my dad's siblings just because it's a paternal tribe. So we wouldn't go and live with my mom's folks, even though she's alive. We would be moved to my dad's side because they have to take care of us. That's how it is. So your paternal side has to put you through school, they have to feed you, they have to take care of you. And then so what they tend to do is to maybe split the children. So maybe I would go to my my dad's sister, my brother will go to my dad's brother, but they would share the kiss across that paternal side. So that's how it works, right? So back to language again. For us, it's like even if I'm born, I'm fancy. I was born in the Western region, I wasn't born in the Western region. Let's say I was born in the Ashanti region. The Ashanties would consider me a fancy. They would consider me as a fancy, a native fancy speaker, not an Ashanti native speaker. So it's more like a um um how do you say there's an English word I'm forgetting right now, but then it's like a black thing. It's like you are born into your heritage. So my dad is fancy, my mom is fancy, but I was born in a different region, not the Western region, but then in the Ashanti region, and I grew up, let's say all my friends, everyone is speaking Twi and whatnot. My friends are not going to call me um an ashanti. They're going to call me a fancy, and they're going to call me, oh, or a fanny. Like she's she's a fancy speaker. That's how it is. It's because you are born into a fancy household, regardless of where you are. So again, with Jonathan, he's born to Mexican parents. So he's Mexican, he's a native Spanish speaker. That's how it goes. It's more like your heritage describes who you are and the language you speak. So even if Jonathan grows up or he grew up, assuming he grew up speaking only English, he's still going to be classified as, well, you're Spanish. You're a Spanish speaker, you just don't know how to speak your language, and then people tease you and whatnot about it just because you don't know how to you should know how to speak your language, but you don't know how to speak it. According to society. According to society. So that's how it works in Ghana. Yeah. So there's nothing like a heritage. Everyone is a native speaker depending on where you are born, um, sorry, whom you're born to, and then whatever tribe, whatever maternal or patronium, I don't know how to say it, but yeah, basically, if you're you the tribe you're born, if your mom's tribe is like a paternal or something, then whatever language your dad is supposed to speak, that's so Beatrice calls herself a Fante. Even though she doesn't really speak Fante properly, and she's like so fluent in Ga, her mom speaks Ga. Even her dad himself speaks Ga with them at home, but then she's like, Oh, I'm Fante, but she doesn't really speak it that well. So that's how it is. Yeah.

Hunter 35:48

Interesting. Yeah, I mean, uh among the other parts of the definitions of a heritage learner in the US include linguistic profile, um, the kinds of words, uh, pronunciation patterns, grammatical structures you use, but also your family connection, your your cultural connection. Because it's not only people who have family members from, I guess, the culture in question, but it's we the definition can include people who go on like church mission trips, for example, and they get um they get some of that linguistic profile. The um mainstream SLA might call it more implicit, you know, linguistic knowledge, not so much knowing grammatical rules or anything like that, but they can nonetheless still speak comfortably uh and confidently, uh, just like a person growing up at home, or similar to how they might. But yeah, if you're if so many people are learning multiple languages at the same time with multiple cultural connections at the same time, and and you just pointed to all the intricacies between like how you identify based on not only just what language you speak or where you grow up, but also the affiliations your parents have can sometimes supersede any other level, is what I'm hearing. So, yeah, that's a that's added layers of complexity. I know. Yeah, so I don't know, I just wanna want to like highlight that because I think people might listen, might hear you say, like, oh, you know, it's so different. Heritage, the idea of heritage might not, and I hope they don't interpret it this way, but I I don't think what you're saying is that the heritage speaker concept doesn't exist in Ghana. I think you're just saying it's so vastly different because the context is so vastly different in certain ways.

Kareen 37:31

Yeah. I think, yeah, my whole point just to clarify to the audience or to the listeners is that I think definitions change across territories and borders, right? So my definition of I don't like my def my definition of something is not the same as the first time I was introduced to the concept of heritage, um, who a heritage speaker or heritage learner is, it made sense to me in the US context, but then I didn't see it fit the Ghanaian context because again, like I I was quizzing Jonathan. I was like, you're not a heritage speaker, you're a native Spanish. And he's like, No, I'm a heritage. I'm like, okay, well, just but you're saying based on your experience. Based on my experience, it's like if you were in Ghana, there's no way anyone is going to call you a heritage speaker. You're going to be called a native Spanish speaker because of the family you were born into. Even if you don't speak a lick of the language, you're still it really, yeah. So like my mom, my mom's mom is crowbo, right? And then people still tend to say that, oh, they're crowbos. But my mom, she only understands so she doesn't speak it. My uncle, he doesn't understand, he doesn't speak it. So if they ever have to go back to the crowbo tribe, my mom has to interpret to my uncle, but he's still a crowbo. And they'll they are never going to call him an Ashanti speaker, even though my uncle has spoken English from the day he was born. But he is going he is Krobo because your mom is crowbo, your dad is Ashanti, but you're Krobo. And that's why I'm saying that for me, my mom's side is quite complex because they were born in Takradi, which is like a predominantly Fante land. But my mom's dad is Ashanti and something else, and my mom's um mom is Krobo, she's fully crowbo. But my grandfather did not want them growing up learning the language, so my grandmother had to learn to speak Twi. She's married and she knew some Twi, but eventually she ended up becoming super fluent at it because she has to interact with her husband in the language, and now she has to bring up her kids in the language. And my mom being the firstborn, it's like she would hear my her mom speak to other people in crowbo. So she picked up, she understands it, but she just doesn't know how to speak it. Right? And she grows up speaking Twi, and the fancies there, the fan because they're in the fancy land, the fancies there call her, oh, the ashanties. But then the ashanties are not going to call my mom an ashanti because she's a crowbo, just because her mom is crowbo, which is so much complexity. I know. So it's like, oh, your mom is not one of us, so no, even though you speak Twi and your dad is an ashanti, you are a crowbo, because that's it's a matrilineal tribe. Or I don't know, I forget how the I'm getting confused myself. But yeah, that's how complex it is.

Hunter 40:33

Wow. I know in the past, like especially when I first met you, I was just curious about your personal relationship to English, like if you consider it a native language, if you can like what you what label if you had to choose one. I was just curious. Um, and over the years of knowing you, I mean, I've gotten insight into the complexity of why it's difficult to put to slap a label on your relationship with English. And now, especially as you're explaining like the differences. I mean, you've described the pidgin English in Ghana, which is, as you mentioned, a primarily um male phenomenon, um, from what I gathered. But how would you describe your relationship to English?

Kareen 41:16

So for me, I would say that English is my lingua franca. I wouldn't call it my native language, but you see, when you're filling out your CV or whatever, it's like nobody asks, what's your lingua franca? It's like, what's your native language? You just put English there and then I put Twi and then fancy. Well, I put fancy and Twi. That's what I usually do. But personally, to me, I I don't see English as like a language that is native to me. I see it's like a a lingua franca. It's like a language I operate in, not a language that I live in. I don't know if that makes sense. Because if I'm thinking of me, I think mys of myself as a fanty. Like, yeah, I think of myself as a fanty. When I close my eyes, or if I'm supposed to describe myself, I don't say, I don't see myself as a native English speaker, but more of like a fanty. So even if I maybe I could be wrong, but if I grew up not knowing how to speak any of my native languages, I still wouldn't see myself as a native English speaker. Just because I feel like the the English language in Ghana is like defined by the Ghanaian context, right? Like the way we use it, we use it in a Ghanaian way. We we express ourselves in the language in the Ghanaian way. So sometimes it's not immediately relatable to someone who is like, I don't want to say an actual native speaker. Because I use fancy governs my life. Like if I'm happy, I would want to express it in fancy. If I'm sad, I think I would express it better in fancy. If I were confused or if I really were to bond bond with someone, it's probably best to do it in fancy because I think the person will get to know all of me. The same way if an American who's born here were to they they would they envision or they see themselves as it's English, like I work in English, I express my feelings in English and everything. So for me, sometimes I especially when I came to the US at first, like I've never had a problem. If I crack jokes in English, my friends would get it and everything. But then the first time I got here, like I would crack a joke with like you or Saren, and sometimes you wouldn't get it. I'm like, oh, it's not the same. Like it's that's when I started realizing that I use English, but it's it's not the same as when I'm around my people. And Beatrice always says this. She's like, uh, I always like it when I'm speaking with you guys. Like we speak in English most of the times, but it's different, it's very loose. It's like the Ghanaian way of using the English language, the way we make it sound, the way we ex we exaggerate in the language and everything. It's not necessarily the same way that if I was speaking to an American, they wouldn't get it on the same level. Even when we're speaking to Nigerians, there are certain times that we say stuff in English and it's like it's just not the same because we use it as Ghanaians, right? And the same way the Nigerians also. Use it as Nigerian. So that's again to me, it's a lingua franca, I guess.

Hunter 44:24

That's really interesting. I I can relate not to probably the same level as you, but just being a Spanish speaker. Yeah, I what you said hit home for me. Like if I'm happy, I want to be able to express that in English. If I'm sad, I can probably get more nuance with what I want to say in English for sure. But I think that speaks to the the human experience of where we feel centered. I mean, language is one of the central fabrics of social life. So I like that that's where you went with your answer. That's meaningful to me.

Kareen 44:59

Yeah. And another example, like when I came, my very first um undergraduate Spanish class, I had to teach them. And it's Spanish 101, so you have to use English, right? And I was so used to speaking, I mean, teaching in the Ghanaian context that whenever I'm asking students, have you understood? It's like you say ubab. And then I realized I would keep saying ubab, and then I didn't it it never clicked until I caught myself one time. I was like, oh, I realize they never nod their heads when I ask them if they understand what I'm saying or if they've understood what I've put on the board. And it's because ubab, even though it's English, Ghanaian English, it doesn't transfer to this context. So I had to like retell myself that okay, when I'm speaking to this group of people, I have to say, do you understand? Do you have any questions for me? It's not as even though they are all learning Spanish and we are all using, I'm using English to teach two um Ghanaian um students and American students, it's not the same. So I have to change. Or sometimes I'm very serious and they think I'm being funny, but I'm not being funny, and it's you see them giggling like, what is wrong with these people? Like, I'm very serious right now, and then they're like giggling with something. So it's interesting. And then you see in your reviews, oh, Professor Fanos is very um funny. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm I was being serious in the moment, but again, it doesn't translate. But then a Ghanaian um student context would have been like, oh, let's not mess with this professor because she she was serious when she said that. But sometimes it doesn't, even though it's English, it just doesn't translate. Yeah.

Hunter 46:43

Well, I mean, I I think I let me think. If I experience that, if I travel abroad or if I'm in a context where it maybe even in another state, like I visited the the northeastern US, and I I don't know, maybe I can understand what you're saying. If I want to express myself as like whimsically sarcastic, or uh there are ways to do that without using without being overt, like with word choice, with the way intonation, volume, um, elongation of vowels or whatever. Um but yeah, that makes sense that the there are there are minute ways, nuanced ways that you can kind of build uh a local identity, like an on-ground moment-to-moment identity with the small choices we make, or not even choices, small actions we take. And when the people with whom you're interacting don't have don't participate in the same like fabric of the life world, you you feel a little bit stuck, maybe. And you feel like ah, I just I can't co-operate emphasis on the co-I can't co-operate with these people as much as I would hope to hope for, maybe.

Kareen 47:56

I think I have a very specific example. So one time we're going to Sedona, you, me, and Sarah, and Julia. And I remember we were discussing something very serious, and then I and then you were like, Karen, what would you do in that situation? I was like, Me, if I did that, I I said me, if I even do that, like they would have to change my name. And then you're like, why would they change your name? But if I said it even right now, you still don't get it, right? Because if I said it in the Ghanaian context, everybody would know, oh, she's that serious. It means she's not going to change her stance on something. Like it would take them having to change her whole entire identity for her to do X, Y, and Z. But then because I was using it in because of this is how we use it in English, it's like if I'm trying to say there's no way I'm going to change my stance on something, I'm saying I'm going to say something like, then you'd have to change my name. Like it would take them. Something like that, but it didn't get you didn't get it. I guess I when you were like, why would you have to change my name? I was like, um, I just I think I just don't agree with what they did, and then I ended it there because I was like, oh, I don't have the energy to explain the whole thing.

Hunter 49:13

Well, I appreciate your patience with me.

Kareen 49:16

Yeah, I appreciate it. That was like a very specific moment, yeah.

Kareen's background with Spanish

Hunter 49:21

Hmm.

Kareen 49:22

Mm-hmm.

Hunter 49:24

Interesting stuff. So, how did you end up in Spanish world in Ghana? Like what drew you to Spanish specifically? Um, yeah, I'm just curious.

Kareen 49:35

We've talked about it before, but I think Yeah, we have. So, for context to our listeners, Ghana is an Anglophone country, meaning that we were colonized by the British, so we use English as our official language. And um we're surrounded or were yeah, we're surrounded by Francophone countries, Arabicos, Togo, and Benin. And I think the closest English-speaking country to us is Liberia and Nigeria, and they're like two countries away or so. So Spanish is like again very, very non-existent in Ghana. But funny enough, early 2000s, maybe earlier, because I was only born in 97. Um, we've always had these evening shows. So um, yeah, they call the shows over here. So um in the evenings, you have these telenovellas that are shown, but they are dubbed. So we watch it in English. But then the songs, the theme songs, they are always left in Spanish, right? So we watched um Juana La Virgen, um Jane the Virgin, and then several other Rosalinda and all of that. We watched them, we do watch um a lot of telenovelas in Ghana, even up till today. And we also do watch a lot of Hindu shows. Hindi, Hindu? I don't know, Indian shows in Ghana. So that is where I think Spanish, usually, if you ask Ghanaians of Spanish, that's where they get it from. It's either football or telenovelas, the songs, and we never sing the lyrics right. We're just like saying whatever we're hearing them play on the show. So I think Spanish, I got into high school, and then my mom came one time for visiting. Again, I was in Boarding House, so we have visiting periods like every two weeks, or I think once every month. So she came in my final year and she's like, hey, Kuukua, so we have to, Kuukua is my local name. We have to fill out this um tertiary form. You have to choose a school, you have to choose a course, whatnot. And I've I'd always wanted to be, I don't know if I've always wanted to be, but then I've always grown up knowing that I am going to do law just because it's something that was like spoken into me, and I think I also do have an interest in it. So then I was like, oh, okay, then let's just choose law and then whatever I would choose. So you you on the form, you have to pick four different courses, like your first choice, second, third, and fourth choice. So if you don't get your first choice, the university might place you into your second choice um course, chosen course. Okay, so um I'm I tell my mom, oh, I mean, I want to be a lawyer, so let's pick law. And she's like, um, I I wouldn't advise you to do that right now, just because it's like super, super, super competitive. Not that my mom didn't trust me, but it was solid advice she was given that I think it's just best if you did something else for your undergrad. And once you're done, you just do law as postgrad, just so that if it doesn't go well or the government decides to do something, because there's always something with the law school enrollments and admissions, you have something to fall back on. So then she was like, So, what would you want to do? I was like, Well, peace science. Political science is like related to law, and then we we we looked through the University of Ghana courses like political science, and you have to pick three specializations, so it has to be political science, something and something. You can't just enter with political science. So then it was political science, and then I was like, Well, I'm good at French. So I put French and then I looked through the list of courses and there was Spanish. I was like, huh, my big sister did Spanish. Let me just take that. So I ended up choosing for my first choice political science, Spanish, French and Spanish. And then my second choice was um linguistics, French, and Spanish. So that's how I only failed the first two because I just knew that I would be pleased in one of those courses. So I didn't end up failing for the third and fourth. So then I get the admissions come out and I get my French. Wait, I think I chose linguistics, French, and Spanish first because we were thinking international law. Yeah, that was the rationale, and then um political science, French and Spanish as the second choice. So I got my first choice, and that's how I entered um the University of Ghana to study French Spanish linguistics. And then in my second year, you have to drop, so you have to major in one, right? You can't graduate with all three, so you have to either do a double major or like major in one and minor in one. So I ended up picking um dropping linguistics and then just double do a double major in French and Spanish. And I get to my third year, going into fourth year, and then I got a scholarship to either Benin, sorry, was it Benin, no, Ivory Coast or Cuba. And my mom was like, Well, Ivory Coast is just there. I could literally pay for you to go, so why don't you rather go to Cuba? So then I go to Cuba and I come back to Ghana, and then the following vacation, I go to Ivory Coast to study French and then do some volunteer work. And then I graduate. I'm like, okay, I'm done now. Can I go to law school now? And then my professor comes and he's like, Fanos, I think you're really good at this, da da da. And then ASU, there's this um Ghanaian girl who went to ASU and she's doing this and she's doing that. I think you'll be a very good candidate, just apply. So then I tell my mom and my mom is like, well, just do it. You can always study law sometime in the future. So then that's how I got here. So yeah, it's nothing fancy, but I guess I'm here because of all the decisions I made.

Hunter 55:26

Aren't we all?

Kareen 55:28

Yeah, so that's how it happened for me. It wasn't necessarily something that I I slept on or something. It just like in the moment I just decide to do stuff, and then here I am.

Hunter 55:42

So you said Spanish is essentially non-existent in Ghana. So who were your professors? What were they like? Um, what background did they have? Did they inspire you? Those kinds of questions I'm curious about.

Kareen 55:59

So um for my Spanish professors, they were mostly Ghanaian, but the thing we also had professors from Spain, like visiting professors. So the thing with the Ghanaian Spanish professors is that they Davidas did they had either schooled in the US or Spain, and then they tend to use the the Spanish variety of Spanish, like the Spaniard variety of Spanish. So that's how it usually wins, like we would use vosotros and whatnot and whatnot. And they were quite nice. I think they all liked what they were doing. They made the course quite engaging. And there was always a very small class, because in Ghana, everyone's like, Why am I going to study Spanish? In the French classes, we're about 400 in a lecture hall, and then you come to the Spanish class and we're like eight or ten or twelve or fifteen. That's because like no one ever thinks of, well, I don't need Spanish in Ghana. So that's how small the class sizes were. I've heard they are dramatically larger now.

Hunter 57:08

Oh, that's yeah, which is good.

Kareen 57:10

Yeah, but in my time it wasn't like that. So the classes were more intimate, and you got to know your professors, and then they they were like very much on you when it came to your grades because they know what you're scoring, and then they're like, there's also tutorials and the tears, and it was, I think my experience with Spanish was really good back then. My professors were really nice people, and then you'd want to finish and come out and be like them. Like I had one professor, I was like, if I ever became a professor, a Spanish professor, I want to be exactly like Dr. Wampong.

Hunter 57:43

So that's sweet. I bet you you probably had a really close-knit relationship with your classmates too. Yeah. Having been in such small classes compared to the lecture halls of 400.

Kareen 57:53

I know, yeah. Our Spanish groups, yeah. Our Spanish classes were very funny. Everyone knew everyone. And even now, I think I I relate more with my Spanish um cohorts or Spanish course mates than my French course mates. I don't even think I'm in contact with any, it's just maybe two or three. But for Spanish, I'm in contact with most of the people who who studied in my in my year group. Yeah.

Hunter 58:22

So in college in Ghana, you had already had experience with French in high school and like middle school too?

Kareen 58:29

Yeah, I started taking French. Me, I think I I was late. Again, my dad, because of my dad's job, we we tended to move a lot when I was younger. Like, we didn't stay in a place for more than three years. Like we'll be here and then we move to this place and we move to that place. And so I my mom would put us in schools where you're getting taught the courses you actually need. Like if like ICT was an optional thing. ICT is like information communication technology was like an optional course, like French was an optional thing. So she would put us in schools where we get the mainstream courses just so that if I had to take an entrance exam or a national exam somewhere, I have the the core courses down, right? So for French, I started learning French when I was in class four. I don't know what that is in the US system.

Hunter 59:25

How old were you about?

Kareen 59:27

Um, wait. When I went to GHS, I was 12. So 10, 9? I think that was nine.

Hunter 59:36

Put somebody in the US system at like fourth grade then? Yeah. Fourth or fifth grade?

Kareen 59:41

Yeah, because it's before middle school and then you go to high school. So class four, then you go to class five and six, and then you go to middle school.

Hunter 59:49

Okay, so it's the same sort of grade four or class four. Okay, okay, cool.

Kareen 59:53

Yeah. So I started French in grade four, and this was in a different region. This is when we moved to the Ashanti region, Kumasi. Because prior to that, we we'd been everywhere but Kumasi. So we moved to Kumasi for grade four, and then yeah, we were I went and then they were already less, I'm sorry, learning the the past tense. And I remember being very lost because they were like, um um, what is it called? It was the verb manger. I remember specifically that they were conjugating the verb manger and then aller in the simple past tense. And I didn't know because I'd never studied French up until then. So I had to, my mom had to get me like a private tutor to be able to catch up with the class when it came to French. Just because I think by then she'd realized we were going to be there long term. So just for me to catch up, she put me, she got me an extra tutor, she bought the necessary books, and then I picked up. So I've been learning French since grade four, right up till um my undergrad, and then after graduation, I don't think I've studied French since 2015, 2020, sorry.

Hunter 1:01:06

But you're gonna have an experience soon where you're gonna get to use it, right?

Kareen 1:01:08

Oh yeah, yeah. Hopefully, hopefully my French is not too bad by the time I go I go there. But yeah, that's my experience with French.

Hunter 1:01:16

Okay, and then that does that mean that contrarily, when you got to your undergrad, you were starting from scratch, basically, with Spanish? Yeah, Spanish. 101 would be like our equivalent here. Something like that.

Kareen 1:01:29

Yeah, but maybe lower, because we were starting from like A, B, C, D. So the TAs wrote like the the Spanish alphabets on the board, and we literally were recited. So they'll be like ah, then we'll say ah, b, then we say b. That that's where we started from. So we started from like the basics, basics, and how to pronounce things and how to read stuff. Like that's where we started from, like the numbers and whatnot. So yeah, Spanish was like ground zero, and this was when I was what 17. Yeah. I entered university when I was 17.

Hunter 1:02:02

So yeah, yeah, that was my experience too. One year later, I think I was almost 19 when I really started to take Spanish learning seriously. I had taken a couple courses in high school, but um, yeah, needless to say, about 19 in the same experience. We started with the alphabet. Here's how to the pronunciation system. So now I want to zoom in. I'm curious about your experience in Cuba. What was that like? You said in your third year as of undergrad, you went to Cuba, was it for a full academic year?

Kareen 1:02:30

Yeah, so we're there for like nine months, which is the academic year. So after our third year, so going into your fourth year, which is your final year, that's when you go for your year abroad. So instead of doing four years, I ended up doing five years for my undergrad. Because I was supposed to graduate in 2019, but because I went to Cuba, I came back, did my final year at UG, and then I graduated in 2020. So Cuba was an experience. And I don't know if I should even be saying this year, but I remember when the scholarship, so you they gave the scholarship to the top five students in the class. And I remember when the list came out, I really wanted to go to Ivory Coast because I was like, I've been learning French for like since I was nine or ten years old, and I'm still not fluent at it. But then in Spanish, I had met TAs, people who taught me Spanish, and they didn't even go for any um immersion or year abroad program, and they were really fluent, they were really good, such that they were hired by the embassies like right after their national service. So I was like, I don't think I need to go to a Spanish-speaking country to become fluent at it, but then I really do need to go to Ivory Coast. But my mom was like, Well, I can pay for you, da da da da. So she ended up convincing me to go. And I remember before we went to Cuba, the the ambassador, was it ambassador or I don't know, I think the Ghana Scholarship Secretariat, she invited the five of us and she was like, hey, so we're thinking of this thing, but we want to know what you guys want to do before we do it for you guys. Would you guys prefer going to Spain or Cuba? And everyone else in the group was like, Spain, and I was like, no, I want to go to Cuba. I don't know if I should see the reason.

Hunter 1:04:15

But if you're if you have doubts, maybe you're gonna.

Kareen 1:04:18

Yeah, I probably shouldn't. But then and everyone was like, let's go to Spain, let's go to Spain. And then I try I really did my best, and I ended up convincing one girl in the group, and then I was like, you know what? If we go to Cuba, there's this and there's that, and we are better off here, blah, blah, blah. So we and then she also ends up um convincing the other guy, and then eventually it became a majority vote, and

Kareen's experience in Cuba

Kareen 1:04:41

then we ended up going to Cuba, and I was so happy that we went to Cuba. Anyway, so we go to Cuba, and then immediately, culture shock, um, we're met with a cultural shock because we get to the airports, and then these um the Cuban ambassador or somebody, but then the person was Cuban, they come to meet us and they're so excited, and like they like just go in for a hug. We've never spoken to this woman, we've never had any exchange. This is like our very first encounter, and then she goes in for a hug, and she's like, and then it's like, what is happening? Like, why are your lips on my face? It's it was so bad, and it's so funny because we had taken um back in Ghana, we'd studied like the culture, like it's oh, in key in Spain, when you're hugged, the men do this and the women do this, and so we should know, but we were still very surprised. I mean, we'd learned that oh, in this country, this is what they do, but we weren't expecting them. We I think we just thought that it's something that you just read in books, right? And funny enough, we've been watching the telenovellas, but I don't know why I never clicked that this would happen when we arrived. So we go there and then it happens, and then like we were trying to get away from the woman. And then I think she felt embarrassed, and we are also because it's like she probably should have asked us, or maybe she should have known better, or we should have, I don't know, but that was the very first experience we had. But then going in there, like the food was close to home, the weather was close to home. Well, Until the fall semester, but the weather was close to home mostly. The food was close to home. The people, I mean, most of them look like us. Well, not most of us, but then there were some, like you see them and you're like, oh, this person looks like really African. So you see them. It's like, oh, we're home. It was nice. And then just the way their way of talking and the way they express excitement, even though it's in a different language, it's like, it's like we're in Ghana. It's like they behave the composure, the behavior, and everything was very African-like. Okay, let me not say African-like, Ghanaian-like, interestingly. So it wasn't very difficult adjusting, right? But yeah, interesting times. I did like it.

Hunter 1:07:01

And I can just say, like, having known you for like five years, or I guess almost, I don't know. It's been a long time. And you're not a hugger. So I can imagine the shock people.

Kareen 1:07:12

It was. Because, and you know, like it's hot over there. So, like, people are sweaty. And it's like, oh, okay. Sure, kiss me on the cheek. Well, your sweaty face and all. But like, it's like, oh. Oh, goodness. Yeah, but we got used to it though, eventually. We got used to it. I never got used to it though. So I would like immediately we are going somewhere. They're like, oh, kinda work. I would stretch my hands first, just so the person doesn't initiate the kissing thing. So I just shake your hand and then let's call it a day. That's what I ended up doing. Just because I really wasn't comfortable with the whole thing. And the sweat thing was it was a big thing for me. So yeah.

Hunter 1:07:53

When you were there for that long over the course of the nine months, how did your relationship with Spanish change? Did you feel I don't know? We talked about emotion and how we can feel like we can express happiness or sadness and just feel overall comfortable in a language. Did you kind of have a change with your relationship with Spanish?

Kareen 1:08:12

To some extent, to some extent, I don't know if relationship-wise, but then I think to some extent it wasn't so foreign to me anymore, right? Like it felt like something I could use in the immediate context. Just because even though I was learning Ghana in Ghana, sorry, I was I was learning Spanish in Ghana, it felt like an abstract thing. I couldn't readily see myself using it unless like I became an ambassador or something. Because even and then also because of my intention for studying it, it's like, oh, I'm studying Spanish because I want to do international law and then da da da da. So it was still like a tool, I guess, like something I was hoping to make money off. Not something that I was like hoping to like I don't know, but that is how it was for me. But then getting to Cuba and then seeing that, oh, this is the language that people actually use in their day-to-day endeavors, right? Like this is a language that when um um um there was I remember there was this incident where we met this woman whose husband had kicked her out of her home. And then she was working on our campus and just seeing her whole, and this was like within the very first few months of us going. So just seeing that this language is like real life to people. It's it's it kind of also changed my perception of the language, and then also the fact that with time I got to understand it better, just because the Cubans speak like mad fast, like they speak really, really fast.

Hunter 1:09:43

And that is certainly the interpretation many people have.

Kareen 1:09:47

Like it's it's it's really crazy the way they speak fast. And the very first time that we we didn't even understand Komoteyamas, like that's how fast the language was to us. So then once we got there, thankfully, uh the hotel we were lodged in, they they knew of the Ghanaian students because every year there'll be a different batch of Ghanaian students, so they were like, Oh, you should watch these um shows, you should so they put us on stuff just so that we can catch up with the pace of the language, and then with time, you we didn't even realize that it was that fast. But I think having been away from the Cuban language now, because I remember when we went to Vegas and we met I was thinking of that, I was like, ooh, this is fast, right? Like I'd lost some touch with the language, but yeah, it was it was a good time, it was a good time, and even I also remember another thing prior to going to Cuba, we had all these things, and then oh, and Cuba is this, and then it's it's such a difficult country to live in, and then this, and then they are communist and this. But it it's when you're living there, it's actually very different from the narrative you hear. So I wonder which people are in charge of letting the rest of the world know. It's just like how when Beatrice Beach says when she came to the US, someone literally asked her, Hey, is this your first time wearing clothes?

Hunter 1:11:08

What? Yeah, somebody asked her.

Kareen 1:11:11

Someone asked her, is this your first time wearing clothes?

Hunter 1:11:14

Oh, yeah. That's such a strange question to ask. It's kind of creepy, actually.

Kareen 1:11:19

Who I think sometimes when we we should maybe take the news we hear out there with a grain of salt. I think maybe sometimes I don't know what the intention is, but we tend to make countries look the way they are not. It's like, oh, everything is so easy in the US, and it's it was like such a magical place, and then you come here and then you're like, wow, people actually go through things. Like life is not as rosy as they paint it in in the movies. Like, this is where real life actually happens. So it's interesting. So I think you just sometimes have to make your own narrative, construct your own narrative, I guess. By going somewhere, by going somewhere, yeah.

Hunter 1:12:00

Isn't it a nice feeling when you go somewhere and you're pleasantly surprised and you're like, oh, yeah, this is not at all what people say it is in a better way? That's ah, what a wonderful feeling that is. You feel like you've you've seen behind the curtain. Yeah, that's how it feels.

Kareen 1:12:15

Yeah, and that's always been my experience though. Because I I also remember for Ivory Coast, there was a relative of mine who was like, Oh, like this person was always telling my mommy, don't pay for her to go to Ivory Coast. It's a war-thorn country. It is a war-thorn or war-torn. I don't remember.

Hunter 1:12:31

I say war-torn.

Kareen 1:12:32

Okay, war-torn country, da da da da da da da. And then it's like at a point, my mom nearly told me not to go. But then I was able to push, and then I found someone to speak to her, and then she's like, Okay, fine, I'm going to pay for you to go. And I went there and it's like, it's even more beautiful than Ghana. So, what was all of this about? But yeah.

Hunter 1:12:51

Hmm. Well, I'm glad you had a good time there. I've seen some photos from your time over the course of knowing you, and it looks looks pretty interesting. Um, so then after you got back and you finished your undergraduate degree in 2020, which what an unfortunate year to graduate, I have to say. I know. COVID. Yeah. Um, what led you to want to pursue a graduate degree in Spanish linguistics? I mean, you mentioned, sorry to interrupt you right before you talk, but I know earlier in our conversation you mentioned that um you knew a colleague at your school who had already gone to ASU in the program, right?

Kareen 1:13:30

So I didn't know her. My professor knew her, right? Um she's um she's a professor right now at in Texas. I forget what it's Sam Houston. Sam Houston, yeah, state. Um so I was a TA. So after my my graduation, so in Ghana, once you graduate, you have to do your national service. It's like a compulsory thing, service to the government, right? So I did that, and then during my course as a TA, my professor, I don't know how or why, he just approached me and he's like, hey, fanos, so um, there's this student who went to ASU and then she's now gotten a tenure truck professorship, and I really think that you are going to be good. Because at the time I was applying to jobs, and he knew I was applying to jobs. I don't know why he came up with the idea that maybe you should get a PhD. So that's when the whole PhD thing, I was like, maybe I should consider getting a PhD. So then I spoke to um this person who is now a tenure track professor at some Houston, and then she's like, Yeah, I mean I think you you do well, but I just think that I think this was around August. So she was like, she wouldn't advise me to to um to apply that's 2020 just because she feels it will be rashed, and also I had to write a a writing, I had to turn in a writing sample of 15 to 20 pages or so. So she was like, you know what, just take your time, go do whatever you need, and then next year you rather apply. So that's what I did, and then I took my time, which I think was very good advice because there was a lot of things to put together, and then I entered a PhD program. And my mom, she didn't even resist because I I would think that she would have said, Oh, maybe you should rather go to law school. But she was like, No, yeah, you I think you should do it. And then I I came. So that's how it happened for me.

Hunter 1:15:27

It seems like the day I met you it was like crystal clear in my head. You and Sarah both. I still remember where you were sitting in that training room. Still remember walking by, not being sure if that was Sarah. Like because I we had emailed, and then I kept trying to like make eye contact with her, but she wasn't making eye contact with me. The funny stuff. And then somehow, somehow, you came in 2022, so four years have almost passed since that day. That's really something. Wow. I know, and so now yeah, you're you're going, you're going into your fifth year of the program. I know. Almost unbelievable.

Kareen 1:16:06

I know. And then I remember me and Sarah being like, we just go here. This is our first semester. I always keep telling Barbara, she's a first year, so I'm like, just do everything, just get everything that you're just do it very well and publish it. Like, make sure you're more intentional about the kind of um research you're doing, be more intentional about the projects you want to do, be more intentional about your submissions. Yeah, I wish I had listened. I got the advice, I just didn't follow it. But yeah, it's interesting. Five years already.

ConnectED Ghana

Hunter 1:16:36

So one of the projects you're working on alongside your graduate studies relates to a nonprofit organization you have been not only founding, but organizing, managing, probably dealing with funds for marketing for going into competitions for, a lot of work. So, what's the name of the nonprofit organization? What's its purpose? What motivated you to make it alongside your co-founders?

Kareen 1:17:05

So um we have a nonprofit. It's called Connect Ed Ghana, and the co-founders are people that I went to board in house with, two of them, um, Mamie Fa and Beatrice, whose name I keep bringing up. So um one time, so Beatrice and Mamiefa and I, we do a lot of FaceTime calls. Like we're I think every week we talk like every single week, or maybe every single day, unless we're like extremely busy. So one time we're just thinking, oh, let's start a business because we want to be rich, let's start a business, let's start a business. So we actually did start speaking to people, right, about a business and whatnot. And then we're still talking, and then Beatrice was like, guys, I saw this video, da da da da, and then she brought it up, and then we saw the video that she was talking about and the pictures. And Beatrice was like, when we start our business, maybe we can start a nonprofit with the proceeds that we get from the business. And we're all like, sure. And then um, I think we kept talking to people about it, people about it, but it was Beatrice in particular that spoke to this one guy, and the guy was like, you know what? If you're just going to wait to build a business and then start making profits before you start a nonprofit, this is going to be like years down the line. And then maybe you have kids and then whatnot, and then you won't even have time to work on a non-profit. So just do it. So then we got on a call one time, and then we're like, okay, let's start doing it. How are we going to do it? And then we start calling our friends. We're like, oh, we're taking laptops, we're taking laptops, and then before we knew it, we were like building a website and we were talking to schools in Ghana and then creating our Instagram page. And so that's how it took off. It was more like a push from someone that you guys should do it now because in the future you might not have time to do it. So basically, what we do with Connect Ed is that I think I should give a background story. So, not a story, it's actually a real life story. Well, it is a story. So in Ghana, the places that still don't have access to electricity, it's sad to admit, but then there are still places that do not have access to electricity. And then there are places that have access to electricity, but they have no access to the internet. And then you have places that have access to internet but they have no access to computers. Why? Because computers are super expensive in Ghana. I didn't get my first laptop until level 200 of my undergrad. That's this second year of my undergrad. And so, and this is me coming from I'm not from a poor household. Like my parents are not poor, but I got my first laptop in my second year. So it's not something that's, and I think maybe oh, that that's for a different story for another day. So um our target right now, as connected as a nonprofit, is to get those schools or those um public schools that have access to electricity and internet but have no laptops to to give them access to laptops, right? Because we realize that these public schools, okay, so in Ghana, we also have the public school system and the private school system, right? So they all go with the same national curriculum. So when you're done with um middle school, you in order to get to high school, like I said, I know I think I said somewhere that just imagine that Harvard is a high school, and then you have people from all across the country trying to get into Harvard. So we all have to take the same high-stakes exam. It's called the um the BECE, right? Basic education certification examination, I believe. So you have people from private schools, and I was in a private school. We had a computer lab, we had computers that you could practice with, and we all have to take this same exam. We have to take the exam with the people who are in communities where there's no electricity. We have to take with, yeah. And they're not going to say, oh, because you are from this, we're going to grade you easier. No, because once we're done with the exam, they share the papers across the country. So I could be in, let's say, Texas, and then they'll bring me papers of someone in Alaska. So you don't know who is grading your paper. You don't even know where your paper is going to end up in. And there's no way the instructor is going to know that, oh, this person is from this underserved school, right? So that's how it is. And then we all go into Harvard, and usually it's just those people from the private schools. Most of them end up going, and the few spaces left are allotted to whoever is from the public school that can enter, right? Or who has good grades to enter. So I think that's one of the reasons why we decided to do this thing. It's like, let's try to level up or level, um, is it how do you say it? Let's try to just level the ground, just so everyone is applying from, I mean, it won't be the same, but we're just still giving people the chance. So that's that was the motivation behind it, just to make sure that people have access to laptops. And the other thing was that so Beatrice's workplace every year they end up like getting like new laptops. So they come for the old laptops, and she doesn't know where it ends up, but it's like they just send them somewhere, no one uses it, and it's just there, and then they get a new set of laptops. So one time she went to ask her, but she's like, okay, so what are we going? She's like, well, it's just going to be there, no one uses it because we have these new ones, and then we're like, well, we could basically send these to Ghana because people need them, but apparently there are certain whatever where she works, it's quite tricky to just ship the laptops because of confidential and some issues. But these were things we noticed that we had people in the US who have laptops and they are not using them, and they are still in good shape, and we could basically send them down to Ghana. So that's the purpose. It's just maybe trying to help with the whole recycling thing here. Instead of just throwing the laptops away, you could have people use them. And then also trying to help the students back in Ghana to also have access to laptops and be able to also compete on a fair level with others. So that's that's basically what we do.

Hunter 1:23:21

That sounds like a huge problem to me. That so many, I don't know, not so many, but that a number of children are measured via this tool, this assessment tool, that in order to be successful on requires skills that they are effectively unable to practice and develop because they lack the means to the technological means to it.

Kareen 1:23:44

Because I it's it's that serious, right? That people learn the schools with access. It's I I shouldn't be, I'm not laughing. It's just I think it's my way of coping with the situation. But instructors have to draw like the Excel sheet. So you go and then it's time for a lesson, and we could have just entered the lab and then turn on the PC and then started practicing. But the instructor has to spend time because it's a classroom. So let's say instructor A comes, he teaches science, he leaves, and then instructor B comes, teaches the subject, and they they leave. So I have to come in as the instructor, clean the whiteboard, or if it's already cleaned, I clean it, and if it's already clean, I have to draw what the Excel sheet looks like, the rows and the columns, and then have the the students also have to draw it in their notes books because you can't, unless you have a photographic memory, of course, you have to write in your notes or draw whatever the instructor is drawing, and then, oh, this is the close button, this is the minimize button, this is the the um whatever toolbar. That's literally how people have to learn about computers. And I remember when with our very first round of donation, Beatrice went down to Ghana, and then these are students who've been learning about ICT since like um not kindergarten, what's the grade one, I would say, because that's class one in Ghana. And now they're in they are in middle school, they are preparing for the the high school exam. So we put the laptop, Beatrice puts the laptop in front of one of them, and she's like, oh, turn it on. And then the student is just looking at her like I don't I don't know how to turn it on. And they've been taught how to boot a computer, how to shut down a computer, and they still don't know that this is what the button looks like, just because they've always had to draw stuff with the with the chalk or the marker, so it's not the same as seeing the physical thing. So we for that very first round of donation, we had volunteers, so we just took them to like how to turn on and turn off a computer. That's how serious the situation is, right? So yeah.

Hunter 1:25:49

Wow. I don't I can't imagine trying to learn how to use um any really any machine, but especially a computer, where the screen, like it's not just a physical object, okay, of course it is, but beyond that, there's software and the the software changes that what appears on the screen, the layout, like each every program is different, text sizes are different, designs are different, colors game. I can't imagine trying to teach somebody without having the tool there in in person.

Kareen 1:26:20

Because me, I my dad had a computer at home for us, so but we all we just did was to play games with it. We and then maybe maybe it's beacon teachers typing, but even that we we just would play games exclusively. But then I remember I came to the US and I used to sit by Sarah, and then um in Dr. Budri's class or whatever class, and then Dr. Budri is is teaching, and then Sarah is like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, she's like typing away. I'm like, how are you typing at with because she's speaking? So how are you able to catch up? And then she's you've at the end of the class, and then she has like a fully developed like notes, this thing on on her on her MacBook. And then I went with my notes because that's what I'm used to. Because every time I'll go for lectures in Ghana, it's like you're writing, so I can write really fast. I write faster than I type. So I had that's a skill I had to develop when I came to the US. Because I remember every time they'll give us a project and they're like, oh yeah, 10 this thing in Canvas. I'm like, God, now like the time it would take me to, I have to read. If I were just writing out, writing out my response on a sheet of paper, I would be done. But then now I have to like combine that with an effort to type as fast as possible to get everything done. So it was like I was taking two times the amount of time that I would have used if I were just writing out my responses. And it's because, again, because we don't have a culture of using computers, right? Because even if you have access to it, your end of semester exam, you write on paper, you turn your assignments in on paper. So I would say that Ghanaians are very fast writers, but not very fast typers because we don't have a culture of learning on the computer, right? So I did know how a computer functioned and everything, but if it when it came down to using it for like um academic work, by academic work, I mean like turning in assignments, I was slow on that part. So it's That's a skill that I had to develop whilst I was in the US because I wasn't used to it. And funny enough, now it's so difficult for me to actually write because I feel like my fingers get too tight. Cramp up. I I feel the same way. Yeah.

Hunter 1:28:32

It kind of yeah, it always shocks me. But wow, that and how does it feel now that you have, if I'm not mistaken, you have a certificate and call, right? Which stands for computer assisted language learning. How does that feel for you? Like to have this level of expertise in in how technology can help people learn second languages?

Kareen 1:28:51

I think that was one of the reasons why I took call, just to be in, but then now one thing that sometimes I take courses, I'm like, oh, this would be good for if I went back to Ghana. But then I'm also like, even if I went to Ghana, how would it serve the people? Because I feel like if I went to Ghana today and I were teaching coal, it would still be pen and paper, right? It's because that we are not there, we are not there yet, right? People come to the university and they don't own laptops. And my auntie, she's in um New Mexico, she's also getting her PhD. And she mentioned the fact that, oh, over here, even if you don't have a computer, or if your computer broke down, you could just go to somewhere and then pick up one or borrow. We don't have that. Like you can't just go and say you're borrowing a laptop. Like there's nothing like that there. You have to get it out of pocket. So you have, and then it costs a lot to get a laptop. So people would rather, oh, you know what? Maybe I'll just go to a cafe and then type or use a friend's laptop when it's available or something. So again, it's good that I'm learning call, but then sometimes I'm like, I'm learning all of this. I have all this knowledge, but then in order for it to be very useful or very practical to the people I'm going to be working with in future, they need to have certain basic items that they still don't have. So yeah, I mean, I'm I'm I'm glad I have all this knowledge. It's just, it also saddens me the fact that I probably won't be able to use it to help the people that I was thinking of using the knowledge to help, right? Just because it would have I would have to start from scratch. And by the time they even get to the point where they are ready, what I know wouldn't even be relevant at the time. I don't know, but yeah, I think I'm in between.

Hunter 1:30:42

Is that how Connect Ed potentially kind of bridges this gap, though, by first providing the technological means to be able to do the things that require computers?

Kareen 1:30:54

Yeah, because without tech, the the the laptop, where are they going to begin? Like sometimes some students will be like, oh, I want to be a computer engineer, I want to be a this and that. And then it's like you just know that unless this person has access to this, they are not going to be able to realize that dream, right? And that there are several Ghanaians who've had to take other routes just because they didn't have access to X, Y, and Z, which is sad. So that's what's Connect Ed is also trying to do. If if I mean God gives us life and everything, that that's the whole goal to be able to, I'm I really hope we are able to get to a point where because we are doing this in phases. So phase one again, like I said, we're concentrating on the schools that have access to electricity and internet. And then once we are able to help enough schools, maybe by the time that um we'll be in a position to help those schools that have no electricity, and then maybe work with some, I don't know, electric electricity companies or whatnot to get lights into light into those parts and then also provide them with the laptops. So it's a it's a long-term goal. It's it's a long-term goal, it's not a short-term thing we're doing. Yeah.

Hunter 1:32:11

Um, do you envision there being eventually a focus on language education, or is it just broad education?

Kareen 1:32:18

Yeah, for now it's broad education, right? And language education is not something that Ghanaians value a lot. Because there's a lot of yeah, it's like there's nothing special about that. Right. Maybe the fact that you speak an international language is like, oh, Spanish. But then that's that's where it ends. It's always like, okay, you've learned a different language, yay, full stop, and that's it. Right. Because it's like everyone speaks more than one language, so it's it's nothing extraordinary.

Hunter 1:32:48

In most places in the world, really, I mean, that's the case. Multilingual societies are more common than not.

Kareen 1:32:55

Yeah, I think if for Ghana, I've always thought that if I were going to be a lecturer or a professor, then my focus would be more on this whole ideology thing, because I think that's what that's what would benefit people most. Not the whole idea of learning and not L2 in particular, but the sociolinguistic and the sociolinguistic side of language. Just because I there's there's this inbuilt thing. I don't know if it's also from our experience with colonialism where people tend to put prioritize certain languages over others, and then even within the Ghanaian context, like let's say we all speak English in the US, people would say, well, maybe Texan English is not as prestigious as this. So there's that thing in there. So that's a core area that I would like to expose people to if I got a chance to, because I think it would benefit them. Because Barbara and I were talking about it. She just recently got to the US and she just recently took the heritage language pedagogy class in bilingualism, and it's like, wait, was it? I think it's bilingualism. Yeah, bilingualism. It's been very eye-opening for her just because it's like you you never think of stuff like that until you take a course like this. But then SLA is something that I think we are quite used to. But then the the bilingualism class, it really does teach you a lot of things that I think Ghanaians would would benefit from. Yeah, maybe would appreciate our languages more.

Hunter 1:34:26

Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds like you've you've already pointed out so many different ways, so many different complexities, I should say, related to language in Ghana. You talked about pidgin English, you talked about how um it's like a more male phenomenon, but also it sounds like um certain particular social contexts are scenes where it might not be appropriate. I don't know if that's the right term for it to be used, or maybe certain um local languages should be used over others in certain contexts. There's just so many, so many levels of like a multidimensional and for us to be one country too, right?

Kareen 1:35:10

Because recently, I believe it was this year or last year, right? There was this whole so I I've heard from my my mom. If it's not my mom, I've probably heard from the elderly in Ghana that before English was adopted as a lingua franca, there was actually a discussion of using a local language as a national language. But it's also like whose language should it be? Because the Ashantis are like, well, everybody speaks Twi, so let's just use Twi. But then you have the Ghans who are also proud of their language, you have the fancies, and it's like, it should be my language. Because the Ghans could argue that Accra, since Accra is the capital and then it's on the Ga land, then it should be the Ga language that should be uh and then the Ashanti's are not going to agree because they are also a proud people, so it's like eventually it's like okay, fine, let's just use English because it's neutral. But then it also ends up doing some damage to us because then you have people who prioritize English and then they are not teaching their kids the local languages. And then I remember when I was in class 6, I think we had 93 languages, and then recently I discovered we have 91 languages because three of them are dead. Like no one is you was using them, so now it's like no one speaks the language. So it's like imagine if this is three languages, so yes, I heard it it could be possible, it would be possible that maybe we would all just be speaking a few languages and then eventually be just English, right? So it's interesting, very, very interesting.

Hunter 1:36:45

Especially when you think about law applications. I mean, I'm thinking there are probably possibilities where people are treated unfairly in the law system in any country, um, based on what type of language they speak or what variety they speak, what kind of linguistic features they incorporate in their in their speech. Um whether even whether they're able to get access to like fair representation because of the language barriers they might encounter. Yeah, all these problems.

Kareen 1:37:12

Yeah, because I was even saying speaking English doesn't really solve the problem. Because you speak English in Ghana and then you speak it a certain way, and then like, oh, this person is from here, and it's like, ugh, you don't deserve this. But then someone comes and they speak with like a certain accent and then they have access to certain things, they're able to like cut lines or whatnot just because they speak with a certain accent.

Hunter 1:37:35

Cut lines, like literally, yeah.

Kareen 1:37:37

So let's assuming you're selling something, and then I come in and I'm like, I'm I come in with an American accent, and everyone's like, oh, that's that's that's that's a foreigner, that's a person speaking like English with an American accent, and it's like they people just see them in I don't even know what words, but it's like, oh, they are better or that they are more educated or sophisticated, and then because I don't know, let me serve this person, and everyone in the queue is like, okay, fine, fine, fine. Like, let them go ahead, right? It's like like pretty privileges, but this one I guess is like accent privileges, something like that. So it's it's interesting. And then the other thing that I also noticed coming to the US is give speaking, even when you speak very good English, you still it still doesn't guarantee that you're going to be treated right. Because speaking with like of black Americans, they've been speaking English for years. That's like the only language they know, right? But then they still go through a lot of struggles. So again, I don't think a language or speaking a language a certain way guarantees or I don't absolve you, I don't even know, but I don't think that the way we tend to prioritize English works in our interest all the time, right? I feel like if we put some value on our own languages, like the Chinese, like this, we would go far if we teach ourselves in if we teach in our language, like if we taught science and math or something in our language, we would go far. Because it takes a lot for a kid who's been exposed to just their local language. They come the only time they get in contact with English is in school, and they have to learn to calculate and multiply and divide. So it's like the translation from their own language to this language, and then their response, and then they go home and their parents probably don't even speak that language, it's just a lot. But yeah, again, I think we'll do very well with learning a lot about sociolinguistics back in Ghana.

Hunter 1:39:43

Those problems sound really real. I mean, goodness, that's the the fact that yeah, children not only have to learn all these complex topics, but learn the language along the way. And they might not even have the option. Do they have options typically to find a school that's taught in the local language?

Kareen 1:40:01

Or like so usually what happens is that we have um policies. So from my mom, my conversations with my mom, I know that a government would come and then they would change a certain policy regarding like how to teach kids. I don't remember the correct um years, but I know there was a time where the policy was that students are to strictly be taught in the local whatever local language, depending on the setting they're in, until um class four, which is grade four. So you are taught everything in your local language, and then when you get to grade four is when the transition starts. And then there was a point where there was a policy that you get taught in your local language right up to high school. So, and it doesn't mean you're not being taught in English, but English isn't the medium of instruction, right? So you take or you write your English exam and whatnot, but it's just not the medium of instruction. And then I I in my time I know that it was up to grade. I think me, I don't know, maybe it's also because of the school that I went to, because I've always been taught in English. Again, maybe it's because I went to a private school, but I do think that in my time in the public schools, you get taught in your local language till grade four. And I think the current president is also trying to push for that. But I don't know how far they've gotten, I don't know what the current policy is, right? Because there was a government that came that was like, there's no we are not teaching any in any local language, like right from the start, you get go, you are being taught in English, which was very bad because apparently a lot of students ended up failing the basic and trans exam because the students did not get to a point where they could read and write in the language, right? Because they didn't just didn't understand there was no comprehension going on.

Hunter 1:41:50

Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, we kind of see similar things in the US where um certain people, children of certain backgrounds don't get the opportunity to learn uh in their home language, which it sometimes is difficult to do, I guess. You know, I would assume if if the language isn't taught in that area or something like that.

Kareen 1:42:12

I think I would relate it to like um when I took phonology, it was the toughest class I've taken since coming to ASU. Just because we were being taught phonology in Spanish. I didn't even know phonology in English because I've never I'd never taken a phonology class up until that point. And it was a graduate class and it was being taught in Spanish. And then sometimes it'll be like, oh, this certain sound, you pronounce it from here to here, but then I know from the way I pronounce it, that is not where the sound is coming from. But then I'm making the exact exact same sound. Well, I I guess, I think. So it's like having to, and then I I was literally reading the whole textbook just because I knew that I didn't have that advantage that let's say the heritage students in the class had, right? Because oh, maybe to whatever the professor is saying in Spanish, it makes sense to them. But then there are certain words. I remember sometimes Dr. Gardovel will say something, and then I have to write it down and then like Google it and then check. And interesting. So if that was tough for me, imagine if we were learning um um what's it statistics in in for for linguists. Imagine if we were taking that course in Spanish, it would have been like extremely harder. Because even when they were teaching it in English, I I ended up withdrawing from the course because I was like, oh, this is a lot. So if we had to learn that in Spanish, I I think it would have been like extra, extra hard just because it's like math and statistic concepts being taught in a language that I believe I'm fluent in, but again, I'm not fluent in every single aspect of the language. I don't think I could speak in Spanish in like engineering terms or something like that, because I'm not used to speaking about engineering in Spanish. So yeah.

Hunter 1:43:59

Yeah. I also imagine that if the policy switches back and forth so often in Ghana with like, oh no, local languages, then no, English, that creates a lot of pressure and difficulty for the teachers because I bet you they have like materials made in one language and then oh, I guess the law changed, so now we have to like figure out how to shift everything I've ever done for the last few years and back and forth.

Kareen 1:44:20

That's yeah, it's a lot. And that's something my mom being in education, she's always saying that I think maybe when we make educational policies, government should not be able to affect changes to those policies until let's say a certain number of years. Because we vote every four years. So if this assuming in 2020 we have a president who comes, he's like, um, no local languages from so you only learn in English right from the day you enroll. And then next four years, we have a different in 2024, a different person comes and they're like, We're going to be using local languages right up until high school. Then someone comes in the next four years and they changes. It's like, what's the direction, right? And then it ends up affecting the students rather, because they have to take their exam and they've been taught in local languages right up to a certain point, and then this government is like, well, you have to take it in English now. It's like, yeah, it's it's really a problem. And the other thing my mom was saying is that sometimes they make these policy changes. So, okay, now you're saying we should teach in local languages, and then the materials don't come until like two years later, and then this is like halfway. Yeah, so it's like in two years' time, someone else could change the policy, and then it will take another two years for that material to come out, and it's quite problematic, I guess. No, I guess it is quite problematic.

Hunter 1:45:42

Wow. Well, it sounds like you would have a lot of expertise to offer in that area with you know your interest. Yeah. Your interest in policy, your interest in sociolinguistics. Yeah.

Kareen 1:45:55

We'll see. We'll see.

Hunter 1:45:58

If people were interested in learning more about connect ed, where could they go to find more information?

Kareen 1:46:03

We do have an Instagram page. I tend not to memorize stuff, so let me look it up. But on our Instagram were connected.gh. And then we also do have a website. It's also connected Ghana, like C-O-N-N-E-C-T-E-D, Ghana, G-H-A-N-A. Yeah.

Hunter 1:46:35

And you you and your co-founders just entered a competition, like an entrepreneur competition. Yeah, because you explained.

Kareen 1:46:42

Oh, so we did the venture. I thought you were talking about the the giveaway thing that we have running. Anyway, so we'll get yeah, for sure.

Hunter 1:46:50

Let's mention that too.

Kareen 1:46:51

So we actually currently have, I don't know when this is going to come out, but anyways, it I think it's still going to be relevant at the time that this podcast comes out, this episode comes out. But we do actually um have a giveaway thing going on right now. So you can donate whatever amount $5, $10, 15, $1,000 $500 million. You stand a chance to win um skincare products um by Akuma. She has a lot of shea butter, that's what you guys call it.

Hunter 1:47:26

I can attest, I've bought this product before, and it's amazing. I actually have some on my arms right now for a moisturizer.

Kareen 1:47:33

Yeah, she has the shea butter. I'm trying to say the American way. Um, shea butter products, and then she also has body oils, she has candles for both males and females. It's not just it's not strictly a female thing. Well, Hunter is using it, so you know it's not just a female thing, and then she has sponges as well. So if you're interested, African, what do you people call it? African nets. I call them sponges. I think it's called African sponge or something, you know.

Hunter 1:48:02

You can like a loofah, is that what it is?

Kareen 1:48:04

Yeah, but the sponge, you know, the sponge I use.

Hunter 1:48:07

Oh, right. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I don't know if that we have a word for that.

Kareen 1:48:11

I think Sarah called it African Knit Sponge or something, African sponge or something. Yeah, so she has that. So you stand a chance to win, so we're going to pick one person to give to, and then in subsequent months, we're thinking of doing like more giveaways, and then instead of just picking one person, it's just going to be like we have a first, a winner, and then a runner and runners up, right? So, yeah, there's that. And what was the other question you asked?

Hunter 1:48:38

The venture devils.

Kareen 1:48:40

Oh, yeah. Yeah. So um, after our first round of donations, it's been quite slow trying to like grow. I don't think the right word is capital, but then getting money to like buy laptops and then ship them back to Ghana. So, what we've been doing right now, we've been planning for a lot of grants. We will be going for a lot of pitches in subsequent months, but we did go for the Venture Devils um pitch competition, and we came in second, I believe. So the first, I think they got five thousand dollars and then we got four thousand five hundred dollars. So, yeah, we we did that. It was a five-minute pitch, so we had to go and then pitch to um some judges, and then there was also an audience, and then they ended up rating there were there were like 70 something people.

Hunter 1:49:34

Wow, 70, like 70 plus, yeah, 70 teams. And you came in second. That is impressive.

Kareen 1:49:41

So, yeah, it was it was a lot, but yeah, we're hoping that we can go for more pitches and then be winning in the 20 in the 10,000s and 20,000s instead of the three digits.

Hunter 1:49:53

So, yeah, that's congratulations on that win. Thank you. I consider second place a win.

Kareen 1:50:00

Thank you. Cause I was super nervous. I don't know if Hunter has told you guys before, but we've been to pitches, three GMTs, and bruh. Terrible, terrible.

Hunter 1:50:09

She's referring to past instances where, as graduate students, including myself, you know, we have been attempting to do uh like three minute pitch competitions and they're very difficult. They're very stress inducing, anxiety inducing.

Kareen 1:50:24

And everyone looking at your feet, everyone staring.

Hunter 1:50:27

Yeah. And maybe there's some graduate students out there listening who have been really successful at this and I applaud you. But you know, the running joke, at least for me and Karin, is that it's been a challenge.

Kareen 1:50:37

It's been to say the least for us.

Hunter 1:50:39

So yeah.

Kareen 1:50:40

I think this one five minutes I felt I had time. So I don't know if the five minutes was better. Because I've been to three GMT pitches and bruh, it's been so hard. So I don't know if that's why I felt five minutes was enough time to get everything said. But yeah, I'm looking forward to the next GMT three three three minute pitch. I think I'll be ready next time.

Hunter 1:51:04

What a beautiful character arc for you. I wish I could say the same for myself.

Kareen 1:51:09

Because I have to I have to prove to myself that I I can actually do it. I have to before I graduate. So we'll see.

Hunter 1:51:17

I think this is already proof that you did it with a team, you know, but you still got second place. So I hope good things continue to come for Connect Ed.

Kareen 1:51:26

Yeah me too.

Hunter 1:51:27

It's again it's just really impressive and admirable and inspirational that you're doing all this alongside your graduate studies as a as a PhD student myself. I just, you know, I have a lot going on so do you and so and so to imagine doing uh all this work and at this quality I will say it's not just something you're doing haphazardly. You're really I've witnessed the effort you all are putting into this to make it a truly quality um product slash service slash um nonprofit effort. Right. So yeah.

Kareen 1:51:59

But Hunter is also doing well though he has this whole podcast you guys you don't know Hanta is doing so much. I think you should do an episode where you interview yourself or like you have someone interview you for the podcast because it's very inspirational and I keep telling the people that I usually talk to I'm almost like I don't know how Hunter is doing this. I don't know Hunter is doing that because he's really doing a lot behind the scenes you guys he's teaching and he's analyzing data quant qualitative data too that's not easy transcribing and then having to do whatever thing you're doing with the students and growing the enrollment numbers oof boy it's a lot you're doing well.

Hunter 1:52:53

Well thank you I could say the exact same thing about you so maybe um like I said I hope good things continue to come of this I am excited to keep going through graduate school with you. It's been a genuine pleasure the last four years of knowing you and I'm excited to see where Connect Ed takes you where getting your PhD takes you and just continuing to follow you as a person a friend a colleague all the above throughout life so yeah and then maybe the next person to interview would be Sarah our other friend Sarah will definitely be on the show in the future.

Kareen 1:53:35

Yeah she's very interesting I'm I can't wait for that episode though. I really can't wait for that episode. Yeah.

Hunter 1:53:43

Yeah all right well thank you again Karin thank you for coming on here to talk. I hope to talk more about Connect Ed and kind of do a follow-up in the future and see what's changed.

Kareen 1:53:51

Yeah how you've grown you should you should definitely have us on maybe all three of us on two of us because Mamefa is in Colorado but I think she says she'll be coming down maybe not this year because we are still in the phase one but in future we'll definitely want to be here so that you can interview us and then people would hear more about what we're doing. Yeah I would love that yeah me too I mean all three of us would all right well thank you again and we're gonna go ahead and wrap it up for now all right thank you guys for having me I'm usually not a talkative person but I think I've done well I think I've done well I think I've been very forthcoming because I'm usually I usually hold out a lot on information but yeah I would say so you did a great job all right we'll get you back on in the future Karin all right bye bye