Episode #3: Thomas Briggs

Thomas Briggs is an Army veteran and data scientist, originally from Illinois. He is a graduate from Arizona State University and a lifelong enjoyer of the outdoors. 

In this episode, we discuss Thomas's childhood experiences in the outdoors and how he developed a passion for backpacking. We also discuss his experience in the Army, including his experience training for Special Forces Assessment and Selection. Notably, Thomas shares about a traumatic injury that he sustained while in the military and how he overcame obstacles to get back to doing what he loves.

© Hunter Langenhorst, creator of The Language & Life Podcast. All rights reserved. Episodes, audio recordings, original music, and artwork are protected by copyright law. Unauthorized reproduction or distribution is prohibited without written permission.

Transcript

Hunter 0:17

So we met about five years ago through an outdoors club at Arizona State University. And since then we've gone on over

Outdoors Background

Hunter 0:23

what feels like a dozen trips together all over northern Arizona, toward the eastern side of the state, next to the New Mexican border and the White Mountains. We've explored tons of places, even one time in Colorado. And one thing I noticed when we go on these trips is that whereas some people struggle, they have this big backpack that's clinging to their shoulders and strapped around their waist and kind of making them unbalanced and pushing their feet even further into the ground and just causing some discomfort. And those people sometimes complain or show some signs of discomfort. That person is never you. Um you've never been someone to complain, even if we're on a really challenging trail with a super big pack on because we're there for multiple days. And I've just always really admired that about you, I have to say. And I think something that makes it even more admirable is that you have experienced uh a leg injury, both legs, uh, that some people might consider uh to be challenging for a person who likes hiking or and backpacking. So I think those things together just make you somebody that I um always think to when I'm like, dang, this person's gone through something challenging and yet they're still out here doing what they love, despite any odds that might have been stacked against them. So I think while people might be interested for Sir to hear what happened uh regarding your legs, I just want to start off by talking to you about how you got interested in the outdoors as a kid, what uh led you to the outdoors, if it was your family, if it was something else. And yeah, what was your what was your childhood like in that regard?

Thomas 1:59

Sure. So I uh I really grew up outside. Um, I think from the first or second grade on, I was involved with Boy Scouts, and my dad, you know, was one of the very involved parents, so it was easy to, you know, go on those trips and stay involved in those groups. And I did Boy Scouts all the way through uh my senior year of high school uh into the Eagle and made Eagle Scout. Um I was involved in the uh program Venture Scouts, which is kind of the 18 plus uh co-ed group, um, and is able to do some really fun trips with that. And uh we talked a little bit about like the defining moments of uh developing a love for the outdoors, and one of those trips happened on um with the the venture scouts group group. Uh we did a 10-day trip to uh Philmont Scout Ranch in New Mexico, and it was a like 75-mile uh trip, and you know, it was definitely my first like big, big backpacking trip. You know, we had uh months of training to prepare for it. I remember um walking up and down the ramps at the University of Illinois Memorial Stadium, you know, like the parking garage ramps, we would just walk those for hours and hours with packs on, with packs on, yeah. Um myself, uh I think there were maybe 10 people in the group. And uh, you know, there was definitely a couple people that had just like never, myself included, had never done like a true backpacking trip before where you're packing everything in and everything out. Um, so that was, you know, it was definitely a challenging experience. But I think that kind of like, you know, that was the wake-up call. I was like, oh yeah, like this is something I could really, you know, do forever. And like, you know, this is gonna be one of my main hobbies for as long as I'm able to do it.

Hunter 3:53

So your first backpacking trip wasn't until that specific trip?

Thomas 3:58

I had been on um or just the first long one. Fir first first long one. Like, you know, I had done I had done hikes and like weeklong Boy Scout camps where you know I would spend a week or more, two weeks in the wilderness. Um, but that was my first like true backpacking trip. Was I think that was my sophomore year of high school, actually. And um, yeah, that was it, like it was definitely, it was honestly probably one of the hardest trips I've done. Um, you know, first first real backpacking trip. You're in the mountains, the high desert in New Mexico, it's hot. Uh, I think at one point my pack got up to 70 pounds. Oh gosh. Um, because you are like you're you're you've got like base camps spread throughout the trail, but there's times when you you might have like a three-day hike between base camps, so that you know you're taking all your water, all your food, and and you know, going up and down through those trails is not is not easy.

Hunter 4:58

Yeah, it doesn't sound like it. So on that first long backpacking trip, uh, were you with people that you knew? Like you were, I imagine, with some of your friends from from Boy Scouts uh in high school at that point.

Thomas 5:11

Yeah, it was actually all um there was two other older guys uh from a different Boy Scout troop in town, but I knew them through our high school. We were all high school friends. Uh actually we were all we were all band kids. We were all in uh wow jazz and marching band together. Yeah, so there was a lot of uh you know camaraderie there. Uh it was me, two other guys, and uh two women my age who were in my grade and also also friends from from band. And then we had uh the parents of one of the girls, um the friend of her parents. I guess that's it. It always feels like a much bigger group, but yeah, I guess it was actually fairly small. Um and yeah, just really, really fun time. Uh definitely a a kind of a gut check at certain points. Uh uh the story I love to reminisce on is um the shoes I was wearing at the time. I had uh army issue winter hiking, winter combat boots. So they were they were Gore-Tex lined, um, you know, made for made for colder weather than New Mexico in it, must have been April or May at the time. I'm I think I probably went over spring break. And um I honestly I didn't have too much of a problem with them until the very last day. You're hiking down from a a point called the Tooth of Time. And if you look up pictures of Philmont Scout Ranch, you'll see the Tooth of Time because it's a very iconic uh mountain. And the last day, I think, is a five to seven mile hike down from the tooth of time into the base camp. And my feet are hurt so bad. I had just the worst blisters, and I always look back and I'm like, I can't believe I wore like winter army winter hiking boots into the desert. And they were the the funniest thing is they they weren't mine, they they were like surplus. I had gotten from like a family friend, so they were probably way too big. I had like, you know, no, no right bringing bringing shoes like that on the trip. And but I mean they they held out, you know, until that last day. They were really they were good.

Hunter 7:28

Sounds like a trip that builds some character, to say the least. I think I've heard other people going on that hike specifically. Is that like the common Boy Scouts?

Thomas 7:37

It's a big, it's one of the uh three big um, they're called high adventure camps in in scouting, and they're accessible to both um Boy Scouts and Venture Scouts. And I guess uh Girl Scouts now, I'm I'm not sure how the organization's changed the last couple of years, but like the kind of the I know there's been some sort of merge between those two groups, but um it is it's it's one of the at least when I knew it, it was one of the three big high adventure camps. So yeah, it was it's a very popular that makes sense.

Hunter 8:07

Yeah, I've definitely heard some other people in the outdoors club say that that also was their first experience backpacking, or maybe not first, but the first long one. Sure. And I love that you mentioned that it was you and a bunch of band kids, because I was also a band kid, as you know, and there's in in my head, there's no reality where me and my band friends are out backpacking together. Like I just love that you're that you guys were out there changing the representing representing uh band kids as people capable of doing some hard backpacking stuff out in the wilderness. Yeah, because my friends and I, at least in that moment in my life, were not the types of people who would have enjoyed doing that. I think I I enjoyed camping, car camping specifically. And I think my friends and I did do that, some band friends uh even. But it wasn't until uh my sophomore year of college that I got into backpacking. So very cool to hear that you guys were out there um doing that together.

Thomas 9:02

Fun uh fun side note. Um, I heard that one of the girls uh I went on that trip with just got back from the full Appalachian Appalachian state trail. She did the full, the full thing with her uh fiance, I believe.

Hunter 9:16

Wow. That's an amazing thing to accomplish. You know, the last episode we did was with um McKenna Allison and Tyler Norcus, who just did the uh Pacific Crest Trail. And I think I'm not sure, is the Appalachian Trail or Appalachian? I'm not sure which way is Appalachian the preferred way, is longer. Do you do you happen to know?

Thomas 9:36

I think it's about the same. I honestly I couldn't say. I've always had the impression that it was it was about the same length.

Hunter 9:43

Yeah, I'm not sure. I imagine this is again not me knowing any specifics about the uh the differences in the trails, but I imagine on the western side of the US, especially in the Rockies, uh well, parts of the Rockies, the the ascent and descent constantly, at least in the Washington, Oregon, Northern California section, is pretty intense. Whereas maybe the Appalachian Trail is a lot more not mellow. I mean, you got to worry about ticks more out there. You probably have to worry about uh humidity and moisture more out in the eastern side. But uh yeah, I don't know. I I'm just picturing in my head, they both sound like they have their difficulties and luxuries, but yeah. Is that something you would ever do?

Thomas 10:32

I've done a uh 25-mile stretch of it. Um, I did that in 2018. Um, obviously nowhere close to the full thing, but it it is a it is a nice, like, you know, you get kind of the east coast woods like aesthetic if you're interested in that. You know, I did it in uh October, so you know, beautiful fall colors, uh humidity was bad. Um but yeah, no, it's it's a great part of the country. Um the trail is, you know, kind of uh I would say sacred to to people out there, you know, like there's there's sections that are you know obviously super, super rural or like completely, you know, population populationless. And there's sections that you know you'll go by and you'll see like cars to other people, and it is it is like a a well-beloved area. Like people, it's it's people take care of it, which is nice to see.

Hunter 11:29

Seems like that's a common thing with these um through through hikes that they're kind of treated as sacred by many people. Uh, McKenna and Tyler were saying that there are people who once they do it for the first time feel this gravity toward through hiking that makes them want to go do uh the Continental Divide Trail or the Appalachian Trail, uh, and then just keep redoing them over time. Uh so it's interesting. And I I think what you're referring to is a bit different that just these parts of the trails are are treated as are really um regarded as important to the people who live around there, but maybe also to the people who who hike it experience that.

Thomas 12:10

Absolutely, I agree.

Hunter 12:12

When you were a kid, was there like any uh trip or camping experience or backpacking experience you had that was particularly difficult or bad to put it in simple terms?

Thomas 12:23

Um there was probably times in you know in Boy Scouts that I I was less than happy about being outdoors. Uh I definitely had some early experiences with uh hypothermia. Oh that made me very uh you know cautious and uh over prepared, let's say, for for winter camping. Um but none that like really have a story. Uh I think the only time the only the only time I can remember being like actually miserable outside in in the civilian world is uh I did a uh a a YMCA camp um when I was maybe 12 that uh I hadn't wanted to go to in like South Georgia. My my mom's family is from Georgia, and uh her dad and brothers had all gone to this camp. So she was like, Oh, you're going to the camp. You like the outdoors, you'll be fine. And it was a it was a 10-day camp, and I was just so like unhappy to be there.

Hunter 13:29

Was it the weather or something?

Thomas 13:30

It was it was the weather. I I strongly disliked the south in the summer because of the humidity. Um, I got bitten by mosquitoes like a dozen times. I got horribly sunburned. Um, I was just an unhappy camper. Uh there was one time. Um oh it was it it's funny. Um I I saw a news article about it or something, and they're they're revamping its leadership. Uh I could I didn't read the full thing, but it I I saw it in the you know in the local news for that that uh town not too long ago. And um it was just like I remembered the the point of the camp was you know like a it wasn't it wasn't solely for for boys. There was a a boys like two weeks and then uh uh two weeks for girls as well at a different pot time of the year. But um at the time I went, it was still very much like the mentality was like, oh, like this is gonna, you know, make you into a man. This is you know kind of like a a rite of passage. Yes, yeah, for for young, you know, for you know, 12 to I think 15 year olds at the time. Um, so one of the activities we did in the spirit of that was uh the camp director uh came around to everyone and said, Hey, there's a uh ice cream shop on the top of this this mountain. And they've been they've been building it for the last year.

Hunter 14:58

And uh and I feel like I can I can see where this is going.

Thomas 15:03

And and all you have to do to get free ice cream from this place is we're gonna help them with the construction. Grab a rock the size of your head, and we're gonna take it up this mountain. And I I remember like hearing this and just thinking, yeah, that's a load of crap. Like I I I my bad attitude, unfortunately, was was you know probably keeping me from having any kind of fun at this camp. But I I like immediately was just like, nah, like this, this is there's no way that's true.

Hunter 15:33

Um were you the only one that was skeptical? No, you couldn't.

Thomas 15:36

I'm sure I wasn't. Um, but I like I remember getting up to what I what I ended up doing was I put like a a bundle of my like t-shirts into a bag to look like I was carrying something. And you know, of course, we get up to the mount, the top of the mountain. It was probably only like an hour or two of walking. Um, but we got up to the top, and you know, they gave us this big speech about like, oh, there's no such thing as free ice cream in the real world, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, yeah, like uh, you know, I I knew it. I I I saw through your your deception. Um that is evil.

Hunter 16:11

It was it was like, I don't know, I I wouldn't say it was like eye-opening or anything, but it was like eye-opening at least in the sense that dang people can take advantage of here in life.

Thomas 16:21

Yeah, yeah, right, right. And and I I don't know, I feel like it it didn't, you know, make me into this jaded cynic at 12, but um, it was like I I I I remember feeling just this sense of like, oh, I I didn't want to come here and this place is evil, you know, this place is taking advantage of of you know preteen boys. Um my I I was talking to my mom. It must have been um this last December when I was visiting uh family for holidays. I was talking to her about this camp, and uh she reminded me that I had sent a series of like ultra sarcastic letters home talking about like sarcastically saying, like, oh, I loved, you know, getting sunburned and I loved like having to play uh, you know, like we did like shirts versus skins, like football or something, and they made me be skins, and I got you know horribly, horribly sunburned. And I was talking about like, oh, I loved getting sunburned, and I loved like carrying rocks above a mountain. Um just a you know, it one of those like childhood memories that you don't think about until you know you're talking about like outdoor stuff, and it is like funny to think like, oh, I had this like what could be called a really unpleasant experience um, you know, when I was 12 with the outdoors, but still like, you know, kind of remember it almost fondly in a way. And then, you know, it didn't it didn't keep me from doing Boy Scouts or anything else as I got older.

Hunter 17:51

That doesn't surprise me that it didn't dissuade you from wanting to go back for more. I'm just knowing how you are as a person, sounds like as from a young age, you had this trajectory of building resistance to to uh difficult things in life uh and not letting it get to you. And in a sense, though, I think what draws people to backpacking once they start uh and just difficult life experiences like that, what you're saying, is ironically and somewhat paradoxically the struggle itself. I think human beings are wired to find uh purpose and meaningfulness in overcoming challenges, and I think it broadly uh keeps us coming back for more in a sense, and no matter what what arena of life it's in. But I think for me, there are multiple advantages of backpacking and being outdoors, it's like reconnecting with things that are so easily forgotten when we live in what they call concrete islands, especially in Phoenix, uh just miles and miles of of paved road and and buildings that go in as far as the eye can see, reconnecting and remembering what the planet really is, and then also remembering that we are capable of difficult things uh physically, of course, because backpacking is hard for the reasons I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, but also mentally. I think so much of backpacking is a mental challenge rather than a physical challenge because we we can do it, you know. The the legs might burn and the feet might have blisters and the shoulders might have some soreness from the straps, but it is ultimately so much of it is how much we're willing to put up with. And as I said from the beginning, you are willing to put up with a lot. Uh sounds like from your childhood all the way until present day. Um, now on the flip side of that, are there any experiences? You know, you mentioned the New Mexico experience, but any others that that uh you think back to that you're like, dang, these these are ones experiences I would relive again in a heartbeat. Uh talking about your childhood in particular.

Thomas 20:05

You know, it was probably more of a a case of there was hundreds of moments that like really cemented um you know a love for the outdoors. I it really like I just I spent every moment that I could outside. Uh my parents were not, you know, big on uh letting my brother or I play the computer, play video games, you know, we would go to friends' houses for that. Um I do think it was kind of a different world almost.

Hunter 20:35

Um what year were you born?

Thomas 20:38

1995.

Hunter 20:39

95, okay.

Thomas 20:40

So uh I think the Nintendo 64 came out maybe around with the year I was in kindergarten, you know, 2000. I honestly don't know, but I didn't get one until I was in the fifth or sixth grade. So, you know, five to ten years after the console came out. And you know, that led to me and my brother, you know, we would go and find the neighborhood kids and have you know little adventures uh running around. Um I think the area I grew up in was very conducive to that. It you know, it kind of had the combination of uh culture from the university. It was a college, University of Illinois, like the the town surrounding that. So we had the culture from the university, but it like diversity of people, you mean yeah, and and you know, good food and restaurants. Um, but then it was kind of enough of a small town that you could easily traverse it from one side to the other on a bicycle, which I did constantly as a kid. You know, I would ride for like an hour or more and and just kind of like you know, there wasn't, you know, there was some busy roads I had to cross, of course, but there was nothing like, you know, I was never trying to get across a freeway on a bike, obviously.

Hunter 21:53

Yeah, that's a benefit, really. Yeah. And I was talking to somebody recently and they they reminded me like having these outdoors experiences actually, in a sense, may not be as common as people think because so much of the population is distributed in these urban areas. Like there's high density populations in these urban areas where people live in sky. People live in cities, yeah. High rises, excuse me. Yeah, and so many people live in cities. Cities. So although it seems like yes, there's so much space in land in the United States where people can live in rural areas and at least suburban areas that might have more opportunity for this stuff, so many people don't. Um, and it's just interesting to think about because I, like you, have so many memories of just exploring my neighborhood with my brother. Like uh, I was born four years after you, but I think nonetheless, you and I are both in this interesting group where we're nonetheless uh like technologically literate, like we grew up with the technologies of today enough to understand how to use them pretty effortlessly, but we also have this lasting memory of what it's like to live without it, and or at least to have this big box computer that is the thing we play with, yeah, and not just uh an iPad or a tablet or something like that. And and so in in the early days of our childhood, it made it more difficult to just like sit down and and be endlessly entertained by games because oftentimes the computer would freeze up or it would just like restart in the middle of what you're doing, or the internet wouldn't work, a phone call, and that would mean the the internet wasn't working, yeah. Yeah, and so just like you, it sounds like my brother and I would go out into the woods behind our house. We had the fortunate experience of living right in front of this uh someone's private property, really, uh, in retrospect. It was definitely like fenced off, but I think they didn't mind that we went out and explored stuff. There was like some old barns that were falling apart there. We would go in and pretend that we're exploring these abandoned buildings and uh you know, on these missions, and we would find uh all these cows and bulls and try to uh avoid them like they're you know out to get us. And sometimes they did chase us. We could find big scorpions out there, climb hills, and yeah, it really was a meaningful, wonderful childhood. Is it was yours similar?

Thomas 24:13

Oh, definitely. Um we didn't quite have the the you know the forest behind the house, but uh you know, there was enough space and enough people had yards in my neighborhood um that it did, you know, there was there was room to to have like the childhood adventures like you're describing. Um I think the only significant feature of the neighborhood was we had a we had an alleyway uh that kind of had like it really wasn't like a rundown area, but it, you know, it felt like that as a kid. So we would, you know, we would run up and down that alleyway, and or you know, that would be our our our passageway through, you know, the mines of Moria or whatever, you know, whatever the adventure was. Um and I uh there was never a really consistent group besides probably me and my brother, uh just with like the in and out of of neighborhood kids throughout, you know, the the 10 years or so that was my childhood. Um but you know, we had enough of those adventures with enough people that like that you know cemented itself as like the I guess the vibe of of growing up in that area. And um that was uh bolstered by again frequent trips with the Boy Scouts, uh, you know, family camping trips. Um when we whenever we would go down to visit my mom's family in Georgia, they did kind of live out in the the boonies, um, in in more a more heavily wooded area. So there were more, you know, like me and my brother would just go out and wander around for hours, and as long as we were home by by supper, you know, there was never never any cause for worry for my parents. You know, they pretty much let us roam, roam wherever we wanted.

Hunter 26:00

It's relatable for sure. It's I think what's interesting is that those experiences of being with the kids in the neighborhood teach you so many life lessons, like how to share your things with people uh when they are are difficult, when they're like uh imposing on you and they say, Oh, you know, let me ride your bike or let me ride, let me play with this, blah blah blah blah blah. How to deal with people that are pressuring you to do something, how to deal with people that are mean, because you know, that's we're all kids just trying to figure out what being a human is, and so I think those moments are so valuable for children. And it seems like in music, I'm gonna relate this to music and the lyrics that people talk about when they reflect on the nostalgic feeling of childhood, relates a lot to those kinds of moments with more broadly, in air quotes, the kids of the neighborhood, because so many life lessons come from it. And it's gonna be interesting to see in the future how, if at all, the sort of center of gravity in lyrics about kind of childhood reflection shifts in the future as we uh now are getting musicians talking about their childhoods from the post technological shift era, if that makes sense. Sure. Post iPhone, post-iPod and iPad uh era. So I wonder if they're gonna of course these experiences don't just disappear in in the world for children. There's tons of nuance, but I it will be interesting to see if the valuable stuff is different to them.

Thomas 27:39

And it's I I think it's fair to say it's no longer the the norm of growing up. Like it was definitely the norm when when I grew up and you know where I was from. Like, you know, none of my friends had phones until you know middle school at the very earliest because they just didn't exist. Yeah. And then you know, smartphones started showing up by you know when I was in high school. But again, like that's that's obviously vastly different from from today.

Hunter 28:05

Yeah, I remember when the iPod Touch came out and I saw some of my friends with that, like after I forget what Christ what year's Christmas it was, but I remember seeing them like play with this thing. I'm like, what is this magic? Like you can just touch and swipe, and like what a concept. And you know what's weird is some of my cousins have young kids, and they the kids are like drawn to devices like that in a in an odd way, like in a surprising way. Whereas like you could have a lineup of toys on the floor, and even some of the favorite toys that they've played with before. But if there's a screen that's lit up, they're at least in my experience, drawn toward it. And I I just wonder what that is, if it's just the light, if it's it's some, you know, a shiny, sparkly object that uh to them is just shiny and sparkly, and to us has uh more specific uh like meaning and and usefulness, but it's just it just made me think like, huh. I wonder what that will do to children more broadly. Yeah, it's interesting.

Thomas 29:17

It's funny you mentioned the the i you know, your first interaction with an iPod. Um, that was the way I got my parents to buy me like the first iPod nano, I think it was called, which was a USB stick with a with a pause and play button at the time. It was like literally like I remember the USB stick and the tiny little cover. Yeah, yeah. Um it it was like yeah, you know.

Hunter 29:43

Yeah, you couldn't even select the song you wanted to hear.

Thomas 29:46

There was no there was no screen, it was a pause and play button and like a volume control.

Hunter 29:50

Yeah, so that taught some patience to accept that.

Thomas 29:53

Well, the the way I got I convinced my parents to let me to let me save up for one uh when I was in high school was uh I was on the cross-country team in in middle and high school, and I had started running with a a Sony like Walkman like disc player that you know got to be the the source of some ridicule from from the rest of the team. And I found that was like, okay, come on, like this makes sense. You know, if I'm gonna be running and listening to to music, at least at least let me carry something that's not, you know, a half pound of plastic with a with a disc inside.

Hunter 30:29

Seriously, yeah.

Military experience

Hunter 30:32

So as you're you know, we're still in your childhood era here in a conversation. As you're approaching graduation from high school, is that when you decide that you want to enlist in the army, or was that a little bit after you graduated?

Thomas 30:47

No, that was that was about the timeline. Um I remember being very little and um thinking that I wanted to be an astronaut, as as many kids do. Uh my dad was a big um space nerd. Uh he has models of every uh Saturn rocket that's taken, you know, that's gone on every Apollo mission, particularly. Um, and I think that that kind of influenced me, you know, the desire to, you know, have adventures and be, you know, something related to the military. Um and that translated as I got into high school into wanting to be uh an Air Force fighter pilot, actually. Uh that was my, I think that was my first like true like dream job. Um, so when I was in my I think senior year of high school, uh I got the call, as many people do, from different recruiters. And I went and talked to the uh Air Force ROTC recruiter at the U of I campus to learn about the the officer program for the Air Force there. Um I had thought about applying to the Air Force Academy, uh, but it honestly like it never really like interested me to like kind of go that extra mile. Uh and anyways, um at one point I got a call from the the Marine Corps recruiter, actually. And I I just was like, oh yeah, like I I like the military, like I think it's cool. I'm gonna go talk to this recruiter just to see what you know he has to say. And he gave me this whole like big spiel on like honor, courage, commitment, all these like Marine Corps values. And he did a really like he like had a very nice presentation. He had uh all these different challenge coins, and like he was like, all right, like this is you know what you get like if you if you come back from from Marine Corps boot camp, like come back here and like show up in your uniform, like we'll give you these challenge coins and you'll you'll be a marine, like just very like gung-ho guy. Uh and I think the next week the army recruiter called and was like, What's up, bro? Like I heard you're interested in the military, like come come down and talk to us. And uh it was like the recruiter is just this very funny guy. Uh honestly, probably would have done very well as like a used car salesman in another life, but um honestly, he like he sold me on on the the Kool-Aid there. Uh and and I I remember coming back, like driving home from the recruiting office, just thinking like, yeah, this is this is this is it. This is like something just clicked in my head. Um I I honestly think I think at the time the biggest uh deciding factor was the army said that I could get I could choose my own job, my own MOS versus the Marine Corps kind of puts you where they need you. And um at that point I had I already knew that uh you know I wanted to do the like whatever was the hardest thing to do. Which was um at that time I think I wanted to do ranger school and go into the army's ranger regiment. Um but honestly, it was more it was less defined than that. I uh had this idea that I like wanted to kind of challenge and prove myself. You know, you talked about surviving hardship or do you know going through hardship and and and challenging yourself as a person through through backpacking. And I definitely had a strong sense of that, I think. Um, particularly like kind of later in high school, I was kind of searching for something that I could use to like define myself and and something about that that army recruit was like, oh yeah, this is this is what I want to do, like this is something I can say, like, yeah, this is like what I want to be, like this is what I am.

Hunter 34:56

So if your original goal was being a fighter pilot in the Air Force, what if anything shifted? Like, what was your new goal uh in shifting to the army?

Thomas 35:05

I I honestly don't remember if I had like a specific job in the military or in the army at the time. Um, I think I had kind of fallen out of love with the idea of being a fighter pilot. Uh my my I my conception of it at the time was, yeah, it's like the coolest thing in the world, flying. Um but imagine like all the times that you're not flying and you, you know, have to sit behind a desk or you know, do paperwork, blah, blah, blah. Like all the, you know, flying is itself is a very small percentage of your time. And I think what I liked the idea of was in the army, I can be in the in the trenches, you know, with with other people. I I I already had a strong sense of like I want something that's gonna give me a lot of camaraderie. And like I want to be, I want to be hands-on for as much of this as I can. And uh that like just something about like again, the art the recruiter just like resonated with me. And I, you know, a lot of those boxes were ticked. The the camaraderie, obviously, the extreme like hardship and challenge. The uh, you know, the army, the military in general kind of has this notion of like, oh, like you wanna you wanna do that? Okay, like go go do it. But I think the army does a really good job of that in particular, where if there's a school that you really want to go to, you just have to prove that you're like you're ready for it, whether that's physically, mentally, you know, if you if you can do it, then they will let you do it for the most part. Obviously, there's stipulations to that, but I I that was an idea that I I liked.

Hunter 36:58

So it sounds like you were pretty excited. Like you said, you were driving home from talking to the recruiter and you had this like good feeling in your soul, you know. That's yeah, yeah. That's cool. So, how long after graduation was it that you finally entered uh and like started boot camp?

Thomas 37:13

I uh so I officially enlisted in the uh in the reserves. So at the time, my plan was to uh my parents hated the idea of me enlisting. Um they desperately wanted me to go to college. So my compromise there was I would enlist in the Army Reserves, uh, go to the University of Illinois for four years and graduate. And then um I think at the time I I I had mentally committed to the idea of Army ROTC, but I was kind of just like, okay, like I can do the Army reserves while I'm in college for four years and then and then see, you know, kind of what I want to do after that. And at that time, that was that would have been my full reserves contract, like fulfilled. So four years of your life, and you're and you're done. And then you know, you can figure out what's next, whether it's re-enlistment, officer school, whatever. Um I lost my train of thought.

Hunter 38:10

No, I was just asking like uh how long it was, uh was it the next semester?

Thomas 38:15

Oh, yeah, sorry. So the reserves I I actually officially enlisted while I was in high school in in March of 2014, and then uh I graduated high school in May of that year, and then went into and then went to uh boot camp that summer. So yeah, graduated high school May of 2014 and then left for Army basic training in in that June.

Hunter 38:45

Gotcha. Okay, and so you show up at boot camp, uh, was it what you expected or what you imagined it would be like?

Thomas 38:52

Or was it not at all? And I don't I don't think anyone really knows unless you have like a parent or brother that's you know that's served. Um it was it was honestly awful. It was probably like some of the worst weeks of my life up until that point. Um, this was a surge year for the military. Uh ISIS was, you know, going off on the TV. I remember uh my my first basic training was in uh at Fort Leonard Wood in Missouri, and I remember standing in line for uh like lunch and we were watching like you know, news footage of of ISIS, you know, tearing across Iraq. And I think the general mood was kind of excitement at that point because you know it was just it was an exciting time. You're a bunch of kids like going to the military, and there's you know a big terrorist organization on the other side of the world that we all thought we were gonna go fight. Um the first week or so, the first two weeks of boot camp is called reception, and it's where you get all your stuff, whether it's clothes, uh vaccinations, um haircut, haircut, yeah, yeah. If you've seen um, you know, any any movie about basic training, like you kind of know how miserable it is.

Hunter 40:16

Uh you said two whole weeks for that?

Thomas 40:19

I think it was about 10 days. So so the point of it being a surge year um was that there was a lot of people and there was like every every room, every station was overflowing. So I like I remember just ending up like getting getting your your your first set of boots. You were in line for hours, just standing, you know, stock still up against the wall. Uh the drill sergeants are constantly patrolling, looking for anyone who's like slouching or like leaning against the wall.

Hunter 40:52

Were you allowed to talk to each other?

Thomas 40:54

Uh I probably I I don't remember like having any great conversations. I'm sure we were allowed to talk, but then again, you're all strangers at that point. Yeah, yeah. You're all like scared kids. Um, it was it was genuinely it was I think up until like getting injured, it was probably my least favorite experience in the military, like bar none.

Hunter 41:15

For boredom or boredom, yeah.

Thomas 41:17

Like like standing in line for like five or six hours, and then you know, you're in a place where you have the idea that just everyone hates you and it's super uncomfortable and there's no real end in sight. We you know, like you know it's gonna be a week or more. Um, but but there's no like that you don't show up and and they and they say like, okay, like you're gonna be here for five days. They're like, okay, like get in line, shut up, like cut all your hair off. You know, there's no there's there's no coddling from from the get-go. Um, and it was just, it was, it was really visceral. I honestly I I I think everyone was kind of in the same mindset. It's like as bad as as bad as basic can be for whatever reason, at least it's you're doing something. Reception is just mind-numbingly dull hours of standing around like doing nothing.

Hunter 42:09

Leaves you a lot of time for reflection and to imagine what might be coming.

Thomas 42:12

Yeah, I think, yeah, that's probably part of the point, is they want you like terrified of whatever's gonna come next.

Hunter 42:21

Um sounds like such an interesting psychological experience. Uh, and it makes you of course there are reasons for everything they do. Like everything is for uh a reason, I imagine. Uh the design of everything. Um, so yeah, that's uh I've never experienced that firsthand, but I have a few, you know, I I know quite a few people who have been in the military. So uh yeah, sounds fascinating. Um was there anything in particular that after the reception kind of surprised you or was like, oh, okay, I didn't expect this to happen.

Thomas 42:52

But honestly, not really. Um again, it was probably a case of like there was uh you know, dozens or hundreds of little moments that like at the time I was like, oh, like this is you know, I'm never gonna forget this, or like this is significant, like this is gonna be formative. But even even within the next year or so, you know, you you kind of they just all kind of like blends together.

Hunter 43:15

Um yeah, life is lived in the little moments.

Thomas 43:19

Yes, yeah. And and I'll never I'll always think of honestly, always think of that first three months in in basic training as you know, as formative as like some of the more challenging moments of my military career. Um just because I was still developing a sense of like identity, I think. And and you know, obviously it's it's somewhat physically challenging, but I like I was I think I was still like just figuring everything out, like you know, like how I I knew that I wanted to challenge myself, but I I had to decide like okay, like how bad do I want to to do this? Like how bad do I want to be the fastest runner or the person with you know the the best shooting score.

Hunter 44:05

That's interesting. The the interesting thing about what you said about feeling like you're still figuring yourself out is that that's a universal human experience for from the moment we're born until the Moment we die. And I think that it's so interesting that we all have this sensation that we are the ones that have things to figure out still, but everybody else around us seems to have things figured out a little bit more when that's not the case. And I yeah, I bet you that from what you're saying, the experiences in the military, it's a new environment, it's a new social order, like expect so behaviors. Um are some are not okay now that we're perfectly fine outside. Uh you gotta change the way you look, the way you treat each other, the way you talk to each other, your job, all these things. I imagine it's really disorienting. But yeah, so what did you end up choosing or deciding in terms of you the being the fastest, being the quietest, the loudest, I don't know what what did you shape yourself into?

Thomas 45:08

At the time talking about jobs specifically, at the time I had enlisted with uh the job of um chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear defense specialist, which sounded really sounds pretty simple to me. It sounded really cool on paper, and then I I I I got done with basic and realized like, wow, this is gonna be super boring. Um, because you're you're basically in charge of like cleaning up and and like testing for contaminants, but you know, thank God we haven't had a uh a chemical or biological war since like World War I, I think. Um so you really don't like do anything that exciting. Uh I I honestly I very quickly got bored of the reserves and I just hated college at the time. Um and I still had this sense of like, okay, like I'm not, you know, I I still need to to push myself. Like I I I remember thinking like I don't know if I thought this at the time or if I thought of this retro retrospectively. Like I I wanted to, if someone told me something was like really hard, I wanted to do it just to like prove that I could. Um eventually uh I went back to the recruiter and said, like, hey, I'm I'm I hate I hate the reserves. I'm ready for active duty. Uh, you know, what what do you got for me? I think I actually I think I did go in at that point and say that uh I wanted to go into um the Ranger Regiment.

Hunter 46:40

Um which is, if you wouldn't mind explaining to people.

Thomas 46:43

The the Ranger Regiment is the Army's um premier light infantry uh regiment, and it's it's a an elite unit of the army. Um, you know, they're the guys that are like actually out doing the the stuff you see in movies. Uh if you've ever seen Blackhawk Down, like that's Ranger Regiment, that's what they do. Um they're they're a a tier above, you know, what the what the day-to-day uh soldier does. Um at that time, uh the recruiter, I can't remember what exactly the situation was, but basically I walked out of there with a uh a contract not for ranger regiment, but to go to um the army's uh special forces assessment and selection for the Green Berets, which is another uh you know unit in the military.

Hunter 47:36

Are those on like parallel levels, the the rangers and the green berets?

Thomas 47:41

You could say that. Um I think a like I think a lot of people would say, oh, the Green Berets are like a different, like a tier above Ranger Regiment. Oh my god. Raging Regiment has a lot of jobs within it uh that are mostly combat arms focused, um, so like infantry, artillery, mortarmen, all sorts of stuff. Green berets are uh specialized jobs. You'll have um you you operate in smaller teams versus uh like platoon or company-sized elements, like maybe like five to ten people versus like 50 people in the Green Berets. Uh you'll have a communication specialist, uh, a medic specialist, um, a team leader, um, a weapons specialist, uh, an engineer specialist. It's much more like like you have one job and you are supposed to be the absolute best at that job because it's gonna be just you. Like, you know, you if you have like that small group, everyone needs to be performing on a level that's just like a different, like they need to be just the best at what they do. And that, you know, obviously excited me at the time. I was like, okay, like that's something yeah, I can get it.

Hunter 48:57

Sounds exciting to me too. Like a really meaningful experience. Like dang, gotta prove myself and show people I can do what it is that I am here to do. So what at that point when you had gotten your uh contract for the Green Beret, right? Did you know which job you would have, like within this unit of of uh multi-skilled people?

Thomas 49:16

No, um, you don't get assigned a job, they have a whole like process for uh assessing you and like putting you into you know whatever job you're kind of best at there's there's an aptitude test that you take. Um I think you do get some level of like choice. I think I wanted to be uh an engineer sergeant on the teams.

Hunter 49:39

So sorry to interrupt you, I'm just curious. So then to accept someone into the Green Brays, is it mostly just like uh they feel out your determination and your right? Because if they don't know what your specialty is yet, but they still sign have you sign a contract, that must mean that you meet some sort of criteria, a broad general criteria, right?

Thomas 50:00

No, um it's it's a it's probably one of the more complicated processes in the military. Um at that time, again, kind of uh, you know, a surge year for the military and like recruiting numbers. Um at that time, they were offering this 18 x-ray contract to literally anyone off the street. It honestly, I had been in the military for uh two years at that point, and I taking that 18 x-ray contract on paper, I was no different from a guy like who literally walked in off the street. And there was some, you know, there was like a basic like you know, two-mile run that you had to pass for the army recruiters to consider you, but it really wasn't like at like at that point, there was nothing to like distinguish me besides my personal knowledge and experience of you know being in the military already. I see the actual process for determining your job in the Green Berets is you know comes later. There's uh the the whole thing the whole thing I had to do as an 18 x-ray was uh I went back to basic training for another three months to uh switch my army job from uh the seaburn to an infantryman. Uh then I went to three weeks of airborne school, and then you actually start the uh Green Beret process. Uh they send you to Fort Bragg. Um at that time I I went into a uh uh a holding company um that is supposed to be kind of like a a prep for um the actual selection. The official selection didn't start for I think like a year after like from the time I took this contract to actually getting to Bragg, there was like a year of time where I was just doing other army stuff.

Hunter 51:58

And so you mentioned that you had come to develop like a dislike for college at at the time. So how long was it between you finishing boot camp and then signing this Green Beret contract? Was it pretty soon after? Or did you do like a few semesters?

Thomas 52:15

There was there I did a few semesters at the U of I, yes. Um so I I got out of boot camp and came back to Illinois from Missouri for the first time. I was in I was in Missouri from June until October. I think I actually got back to uh the University of Illinois on October 31st, 2014. Uh I was in college for two semesters before I dropped out and then signed the new contract and left for that in 2016, like early. It would have been like January 2016.

Hunter 52:56

Gotcha. And so in this holding company that you were in until the training started, were you like, what was going through your mind? Were you trying to keep physically fit because you knew it was coming up? Were you doing stuff in particular that was like, I don't know, oriented toward being prepared?

Thomas 53:10

So I talked about reception being like the hardest thing I had done in the military. That holding company was replaced reception as the hardest thing. Like it was like to this day is actually still probably the hardest physical thing I've done. Um, because it what it what on paper, it's a it's a place for uh 18 x-ray candidates to wait for the next selection class where they can go through and officially, like, you know, the army can say, we want you as a green beret, we don't want you as a green beret. What it actually is, is it is a hazing and and weed out process where uh you know thousands of people show up every year wanting to be Green Berets and they can only send a few hundred at most to selection.

Hunter 53:59

Makes sense.

Thomas 54:00

So I showed up with I think like three hundred other people to this holding company, and after two weeks we had like maybe 25 people left because people were just like people would drop out on like the first day.

Hunter 54:18

What was the what were the difficult tasks that you had to do?

Thomas 54:21

They would just like uh haze you until until you dropped. And like it was like in a boot camp similar way. Oh yeah, yeah, like it there was a tier above um boot camp because there was no like rules or regulations on on what they really could and couldn't do, as long as they didn't like physically maim you. Like it was kind of no holds bar. Uh the first day we um, you know, they take you they take you out to this like parking lot in the woods, and they just have you bear crawl across like an asphalt parking lot until like five people drop. And that was that was like the normal days. There they were trying to get people to to leave so they wouldn't have to send as many people to the official selection.

Hunter 55:09

Well, I'm sure there are some rules and guidelines. Oh, yeah.

Thomas 55:12

I mean, they you know they couldn't like break your arm or anything, but yeah.

Hunter 55:15

But uh, you're just pointing out that like the intensity was next level compared to boot camp. As it as it should have been, you know, as Yeah, you I think diff different types of occupations, like firefighters, and at least because I I know firefight many firefighters personally, they experience these physically and mentally challenging tasks and things in order to see how they react as like a team player or like how they treat others and how they their determination, gauging how much uh they their persistence in in difficult tasks. And it sounds like the reason is because the day-to-day life uh that you are involved in, if you make it, requires these I don't want to call them personality traits, but these ways of operating in the world, like treating people with respect, even when you're stressed out and when you're tired and when you're frustrated and thirsty and hungry, and it requires that. So, in order to really prepare people for the job and to be able to assess whether they have what it takes, you kind of have to do a pre-job uh create an environment in which they experience what the job's actually like. So yeah, I can see how that must have been surprising given the discrepancy between what it looked like on paper and what you actually experienced when you got there.

Thomas 56:35

And that's that's a good point. The entire point of uh the purpose of both that holding company and selection itself was to create a stressful environment to see how you know the candidates react and like how like like you said, like how you treat people, how you go about your job, like like whether that's something physical or you know, there was like mental acuity tests, you know, throughout throughout the time as well. And it really is just like like how much pressure can you take and still, you know, be a good dude, be a good person, and and do, you know, do your job.

Hunter 57:11

Yeah. In in a certain sense, like in a much less intense way, I could relate the experience of graduate school to that, getting a doctorate. I mean, you have to go through some hoops that are not pleasant, like writing comprehensive exams where it's uh 20 to 30 page paper, uh, three in a row, and you get one week to write each to prove that you can do quality academic writing. And of course, there's the dissertation and all these other types of exams, and just it's I think the purpose is because the day-to-day life requires you to be able to act efficiently, quickly, and do things that make you stressed out, and you got to get used to that feeling, and like you said, be a good person while you do it. Absolutely, you better uh better let the person experience those feelings beforehand rather than letting it get too far and then ultimately having them unfortunately fail because they weren't uh given the opportunity to experience it. So so you were one of the 25 people then to make it to the end?

Thomas 58:09

It would have been about yeah, 25, right?

Hunter 58:12

Give or take.

Thomas 58:13

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter 58:14

Uh that's impressive. Out of 300, you said-ish?

Thomas 58:17

About, yeah. Again, these are approximations. Um, yeah, it really was like we the the 18x-ray class that I went with, we all knew by the time we actually got to selection we were not gonna have a problem with it physically, just because of like how yeah, how intense um the the holding company had been.

Hunter 58:39

And were there friends you had made that didn't make it?

Thomas 58:42

Oh, definitely, yeah. Um, there had there was uh I think a group of six guys that I met in uh basic training in in Georgia. So, you know, when I went back to basic training in in January of that year, and this is now May that we got to this holding company. So, like, and I had been with these people throughout everything, and like I remember specifically like one guy that I was really close with, had been through with him for for months of time, you know. Like we had been together for six months where we're literally like hanging out every day, and he dropped like the first day, and I was like just flabbergasted. Um I think the majority of the people, and and like probably the people I still talk to the most today are guys that I went through that process with and like made it till the end with made it till the end with, yeah.

Hunter 59:36

What a bonding experience. Seriously, they they there's this phrase trauma bonding.

Thomas 59:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hunter 59:42

I think that's real.

Thomas 59:43

Oh, absolutely.

Hunter 59:45

Because in a sense, like seeing that other person out there living their life, that the extension, like what you experience lives through them, and so it's nice to see that they're out and doing things successfully in life too. And it's just nice to share experiences with people and to see that they're okay too. Um, and it gives you stuff to talk about on a more fundamental level. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so then the transition into what it what is called Green Beret School. What is it?

Thomas 1:00:17

So from the holding company, I went and started the official selection process, SFAS, um, special forces assessment and selection. No money acronyms. Uh and and that was honestly again, like it was just not, it was, it was hard, but after the holding company, it was physically like not that bad. There's three phases. There's a um gate week where they just kind of you know scream at you a lot and make you do push-ups and stuff. Uh, there is um a land navigation week where you spend a week running around the woods in the dark looking for land nav points.

Hunter 1:00:56

Wow, that's pretty interesting.

Thomas 1:00:58

Uh I I was I was blessed to always be just really good with a map and compass. Um, so that was honestly like kind of fun for me. Uh the last week is called Teams Week, where you're put onto I think like an eight to 12 man team and you just carry things around for a few days. Uh, telephone poles, uh five gallon jugs of water, uh, stretchers loaded up with rocks. And again, it's all just like how well are you gonna perform as a member of a team under pressure, with like no sleep, you're all like bitterly tired and hungry, and and that's you know, that's what they're looking for, is they're looking for the guys that's like doing everything he needs to do and more under these, under these stressful conditions.

Hunter 1:01:48

Yeah. I wonder if you you you just said basically that it wasn't as hard as you thought it would be. I wonder if you would have said that had you not experienced the difficulty of the holding company.

Thomas 1:01:58

Oh, definitely. Like the holding company, like again, the everyone I I completed that holding company with knew that we were as ready for the the physical demands of this as we could possibly be.

Hunter 1:02:12

This is interesting to hear because of course I've known you for five-ish years, but I I don't know some of these details, and the more I hear, the more it just makes sense that, like, okay, yeah, of course, why would a backpacking trip cause you discomfort to the point where you would complain when you've been through all this? So we're

Thomas's injuries

Hunter 1:02:29

now getting into the territory, I believe, of when you experienced your injury. Uh and so how long into the SF S F-A-S-A-S were you uh when it occurred? And if you just want to kind of walk people through if you're okay with that, I just want to say I respect that uh it must be a little bit difficult to kind of relive some of these memories um because they're hard, and I I just want to to acknowledge that. So if you know, just say what you're comfortable with with it.

Thomas 1:03:01

So I got uh selected as a candidate to go into the actual training part of the Green Berets um called the qualification course, which doesn't mean anything. It just means that the who the uh people who were grading me at selection thought I could make it as a Green Beret. And the the Q course itself is a like can be a six month to two-year training program. So like that's like that's the meat and potatoes of of becoming a Green Beret is is what I'm trying to say. Anyways, I got selected to go to the Q course. Um, and then uh shortly after coming back from the uh camp where selection took place, we were actually back on the same in the same area as the holding company, and uh we were having a mass formation with uh people who were um going to the Q course, people in the medical holding company, uh in the holding company, uh people were coming back from selection, and there was a guy that uh was wearing sunglasses in formation, and someone in a building full of uh officers saw that and decided that the entire I think there was probably like th like 200 of us in this formation, and someone saw that and decided that we were all going to suffer for this one guy's like pair of you know sunglasses that were technically out of uniform. So we uh were doing a uh ruck run um on some sand dunes that I think have been demoed at this point. It was I was funny, I went back to this site uh like two years later and they had they had completely torn out everything around it to put like some buildings in. Anyways, it was I don't know. Um we were doing this run. Um I was hot. I think I actually like finished the rucking part and we got back to this parking lot, and they were having us do uh sprints down a hill, and um I was I was doing a sprint and then I was gone. Um from what people told me of the incident is that I ran down this hill and there was like a puddle that used to be at the bottom of this hill on part of the uh it was called the power lines trail, that's what it was. And I got down to the puddle and just face planted into it. Uh the next thing I actually remember, and I didn't really remember this until until probably like a month later, was uh waking up on the helicopter from um that I was on. They were they were air evacuing me from Fort Bragg to a civilian hospital in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And this was I think six days after I actually got hurt. So August ninth, twenty sixteen was the when I actually heat catted. He I was a heat casualty, um is the is the abbreviation. Um And don't remember anything for five straight days. And I woke up for maybe like 10 seconds on the helicopter ride and have this like very fuzzy memory of a medic like you know putting me back to sleep. And then uh like two and a half more weeks went by, and I woke up sometime in I would have been late August, early September is when I actually woke up from the coma. So um as you know, I I was technically under for 20 days. Uh and then there's that fully unconscious, yeah. Fully unconscious, yeah, for 20 days straight. And then there's that plus five where I you know between the first sign of me going down, the first time I actually passed out and then woke up on the helicopter, and then 20 more days passed. So that's the full that's the full timeline on being in a coma.

Hunter 1:07:14

Wow. So you said you were all running together down this hill, and was it a hot, was it I mean I mean this was yeah, North Carolina in August. Yeah. And it's gotta be humid. I've not spent time in the city. Humid Carina.

Thomas 1:07:29

You know, you're we were wearing, you know, all our uniform items at this point, and you know, we had just gotten done with uh a rock march. Um, and then you know, we're doing just full full sprints down a hill.

Hunter 1:07:42

Do you remember feeling in the moment? I I mean I don't know how much you you remember from the lead up to this point because you said your memory's fuzzy naturally, so having been unconscious for 20 subsequent days, but do you remember feeling lightheaded or dizzy or just like normal life?

Thomas 1:08:00

And then like I mean you wake up in a hospital. Like the normal like day was like, oh my god, like you know, I am so tired, my body hurts, and you know, I I had basically been feeling that way for three months at that point, you know, through the holding company every day was just wow, I didn't know my body could like hurt this bad, and then selection, everything hurt, and you're just you know, you're just constantly tired and and uncomfortable, and that was just like another day. So to all this to say, no, I didn't remember anything like I don't remember like feeling anything special about that day. There was no warning signed, is is what I'm saying.

Hunter 1:08:44

So basically it's like the what do you have imagery in your head as the last imagery from before you woke up in the hospital?

Thomas 1:08:54

Um again, I I remember that that helicopter, uh, but like as of like from that morning, no, not really. I like I I don't even think I remember like doing the sprints per se. I remember like that it happened, but the last like I guess the last like real memory I have is uh I was actually like rolling up my pant legs to like get some you know get some airflow. Uh and then I remember like someone saying like, oh hey, like we have to do sprints, like they're not done punishing us. I was like, oh god. And then and then you know, nothing.

Hunter 1:09:33

Wow. Wow. So what was it like waking up 25 days later?

Thomas 1:09:41

I don't I honestly don't really remember like what was going through my head. Um in terms of like thinking about where I was. Uh I can't remember if I've told you this, but um the drugs that they gave me during the last week or so of the coma were uh I think ketamine. And that can cause you to have like very vivid uh dreams and hallucinations. So honestly, the the thing I remember the most about those you know three-ish weeks were were intense nightmares uh from what I you know again, I think it was ketamine. Um I remember, you know, feeling having the sense of like being confined, uh being hurt, but there was no like you know, there was no like sense of like, oh like, you know, I've been horribly injured and and and you know nearly died and and you know, waking up in the hospital. So it was it was obviously very confusing, which you know Yeah.

Hunter 1:10:45

So in retrospect, you learned that what happened to you exactly? What what had happened?

Thomas 1:10:51

So the initial injury, I I had a heat stroke. Uh my core temperature went up to 113 degrees. Um I was taken to the hospital on Fort Bragg and treated for that. Uh, you know, with with that kind of like high high body temperature, um, they were worried that, you know, it had just completely fried my brain.

Hunter 1:11:15

Um extremely high temperature.

Thomas 1:11:17

Yeah, yeah. Uh later on, and the reason I was airlifted from Fort Bragg to the civilian hospital at Chapel Hill was they found out, I think, I think it must have been four or five days after the initial, you know, incident or where the init when I initially passed out, they found out that I had developed uh this condition called rhabdomyeliosis, which uh is where you have this wrapping around all the muscle in your body called the fascia, and normally it expands and contracts with heat and exercise. Uh, and when you have rhabdo, um the fascia contracts around the muscle uh and it's normally like excruciatingly painful. So like if you have if you have uh rhabdo, like you're normally very aware of it because it hurts.

Hunter 1:12:11

Uh is this like a next level Charlie Horse type of thing? Or is that like an understatement?

Thomas 1:12:15

I think it would be an understatement. I honestly just I I uh like the problem in my case was I was in a coma from the heat stroke. So I didn't know that I had no one knew that I had I had rhabdo. Uh because again, like the normal process for something, you know, is you're in excruciating pain.

Hunter 1:12:35

And you and the person, the patient themselves goes to somebody and says, I am in pain.

Thomas 1:12:40

Please figure this out, right? Um so I don't know at what point the army doctors realized that I had severe rhabdo, but that was why they airlifted me.

Hunter 1:12:52

Um part of the The heat stroke, you mean? Yes.

Thomas 1:12:55

Yeah. Uh part of the problem that made my case even worse was one rhabdo gets worse over time. So the whole time I was in the hospital and it wasn't being treated, the fascia in my legs, particularly, was squeezing and crushing my leg muscles.

Hunter 1:13:13

Which part of your legs exactly?

Thomas 1:13:15

In uh the outer part of both of my lower legs.

Hunter 1:13:19

So like the calves and the front muscles that go along your shins?

Thomas 1:13:22

So it was actually technically only the outer part of my like the front part of my legs. My calf muscles at this point were actually uh fine. It was the the front, I I don't remember the the exact term for muscle, but yeah, it's it's the front part of your leg muscles, front outer part of your leg muscles.

Hunter 1:13:40

You feel that if you flex your foot upwards, right? Yeah. I'm doing it now under the table. I can kind of feel that. Yeah.

Thomas 1:13:46

So uh part of the reason my case was so bad was not only did I had this, you know, incredibly bad heat stroke, but uh in order to treat in the process of treating my heat stroke, uh the army doctors at Fort Bragg pumped me full of uh basically saline. And I think I was probably like 185 at the time, and they pumped me full of like 110 pounds of fluid. So I have I have like pictures of me in the hospital where I am like 290 plus pounds of of mostly fluid. I'm my body is swolled up like like the Michelin man. Like I'm literally look like I'm like the stay puffed marshmallow guy because I'm I'm so inflated with all this fluid. And that was the that was the treatment they were doing to try to bring my core temperature down, but the pressure from all that fluid ended up making my rhabdo much, much worse. Oh gosh.

Hunter 1:14:43

So and so what's the risk with rhabdo, like in its worst form?

Thomas 1:14:48

And my case, which I think was pretty much like the worst it can possibly be, the fascia crushes and destroys the muscle that it is you know compressing. Um, so what ended up happening was uh the fascia in my lower legs completely destroyed the the muscle there, and uh the muscle breaks down and floods your body with all that protein. So like my my bloodstream got completely flooded with proteins. Uh I had complete like kidney and liver failure from again like proteins flooding my bloodstream. Um and and that's like as bad as it can possibly be.

Hunter 1:15:32

Uh what happens when that material goes into your bloodstream exactly?

Thomas 1:15:36

Um, I'm not medically knowledgeable enough to to explain all the ins and outs, but it like it messes up your kidney, it messes up your liver.

Hunter 1:15:45

Uh I had because it's just struggling to get all that stuff that's in there after that.

Thomas 1:15:49

It's yeah, it's trying to it it can't process like that amount of of like protein and and you know whatever else. Um I had I had horrible uh um jaundice for a little while. Uh part of the process after I woke up from the coma, actually, was I was I had to have uh several sessions of dialysis, like you could do with with you know alcoholics.

Hunter 1:16:13

Um because people with kidney problems.

Thomas 1:16:15

Yeah, yeah, they had to to filter all of that out of my bloodstream. Um and I I was still like super drugged up for most of those, but I remember, you know, like they would take me to another room and and hook me up to a dialysis machine, and you know, there's maybe like a week or two of of you know five to eight hours of of dialysis. Um so the all of this, you know, to say is I had uh a heat stroke that could have fried my brain. I had kidney failure, I had liver failure, I had uh a muscular, you know, lower leg muscular injury. Um I don't remember exactly why this happened. I I assume it was part of the the side effects of the heat stroke and the you know the blood, the blood problems resulting from the um you know the muscle breakdown, but I ended up having um like five heart attacks as well.

Hunter 1:17:10

Oh my gosh.

Thomas 1:17:11

Uh there was a period where after waking up, I had I had one while I was in the coma, and then I had at least one more in the coma, and then I had two uh like actually back to bed, like in a day after waking up, and then they took me down to a cardiac ICU to figure out why my heart was going crazy, and I had another one like on on a like table in the cardiac ICU, and I just remember like I I think I was still probably pretty drugged up at this point, but I remember being like, what is going on?

Hunter 1:17:46

Um like was the little the monitor flatlining or uh I'm just trying to picture what this was like.

Thomas 1:17:55

I don't know if it flat I I did flatline once while I was in the coma. I don't remember how bad it was. If I just remember like, you know, being like some nurse came in the room and was like, your heart's going crazy. Like, what's going on? And then she was like, We need to get you the cardiac ICU. And I was like, Oh, like what's happening? She's like, Oh, you're having a heart attack. I was like, Okay. Um I had a lot, I had I had a couple problems with with my heart, I think in that first, like like the the the year following my injury. I was like expressly forbidden from taking any sort of caffeine or like pre-workout, uh, basically any stimulant. Um, I think at one point I I did take pre-workout, like like six to eight months after this happened, and like my heart started going crazy. Like it physically hurt how bad my uh my heart was pounding.

Hunter 1:18:53

Um now I'm just thinking back to all the backpacking trips you've done where we're hiking straight up a hill for five miles.

Thomas 1:19:00

I think I mean I think I've like that, and then the brain and like kidney stuff is probably and the liver is is you know, like you could say, I've made a miraculous recovery. I have a really funny story actually about the the heart thing. Um if if if that's okay.

Hunter 1:19:15

Yeah, yeah, go for it.

Thomas 1:19:16

Um one of my best friends came to visit me um sometime after I woke up. I was still very much like in the hospital. I think I I think I was on the between between being on the ICU and being in like physical therapy to recover, I was in like a step-down unit, which is kind of just like a transitional, you know, place they put you where you're you're still monitored, but you're not like, you know, you don't have like they're not worried that you're gonna die. Uh and my my buddy came to visit and we were watching uh some scary movie on Netflix that had just come out, and you know, they there was like a jump scare or something. And a nurse came in and was like, hey, your heartbeat just started like going crazy. Like, what's what's going on? Um and I think she let us finish the movie, but but it was just like I mean, that was the level of of you know how how bad, like, you know, most of my internal organs were was uh uh a scary movie was enough to send at least a couple nurses running into the room to to make sure I wasn't.

Hunter 1:20:24

Did your friend give you a hard time with that one?

Thomas 1:20:26

Oh yeah, he definitely did, but um it I got him, I got him back. I I pranked him a couple times uh while he was there.

Hunter 1:20:34

Um but as we as good friends do.

Thomas 1:20:37

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter 1:20:39

So what ended up happening with the muscle that had basically disintegrated in your leg?

Thomas 1:20:46

They ended up taking all of it out. So the they they basically completely excised all of the muscle in the front part of my leg.

Hunter 1:20:56

So um you know, for people that who you know, that means removed, right?

Thomas 1:21:00

Yes, yeah. It was I mean it was the tissue was completely dead at this point. It had it had been completely killed by the pressure from the um the fascia contracting.

Hunter 1:21:11

And they did the so they removed it while you're still under yes.

Thomas 1:21:15

Okay, so so I had um probably my first four or five surgeries while I was in in that in that you know three weeks, uh, they did multiple surgeries to to cut out necrotic tissue from my legs. Uh so I woke up and you know my my legs were reduced to you know practically nothing.

Hunter 1:21:36

For people who are wondering, necrotic tissue means that it's completely dead and it risks giving your body uh sepsis because it begins to disintegrate. Yes. Right? Wow. So you wake up and did you immediately feel a difference in your body?

Thomas 1:21:49

I think I was too drugged up at that point. Um, I do remember uh I think the first day I was awake, there was a um young doctor or medical student in in the room taking pictures of my legs, and my my parents were there at the time. My mom asked him why he was taking pictures, and the guy, like, very casually was like, Oh, like we need to take pictures in case we decide to amputate.

Hunter 1:22:14

Oh my gosh. Uh what a wow, that must be incredibly scary to hear.

Thomas 1:22:19

I I think I think I was probably still too like out of it. My mom like freaked out on the guy, uh, I remember very vividly, uh, because she thought it was insensitive, which it probably was not the best bedside manner at that point.

Hunter 1:22:34

I have healthcare professional family members, and they were just talking the other day about how important it is to watch what you're saying in people's rooms. You don't want to give them either a false uh fear or a false sense of hope. You just gotta really watch it. I imagine, yeah, that's you're just disoriented, you're waking up, you're like, what happened to me? And then you hear the possibility of having your legs removed.

Thomas 1:22:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Hunter 1:22:54

Wow. Was it both legs or just the one? Both legs. Same procedure done with the same muscle in both legs? In the same place, yes. Wow. So after the drug started to wear off, did you feel pain there? Or I mean you looked down and what did you see in your legs, first of all?

Thomas 1:23:11

Um, I could, I mean, my shin bone were just like very prominent. I lost uh all the weight I had gained from the the saline was removed as part of the dialysis. So in this very short period of time, I had gone from again like 185, 190 to 290 pounds. And then my the lowest I got after all this fluid and uh obviously I, you know, laying in bed for three plus weeks, my muscles atrophied. Uh so I got down to about 85, 95 pounds. Wow. Um, so the side by side pictures I always I always keep on hand are one, I'm I look like the Michelin man, and in the next one, I look like a a mummy.

Hunter 1:23:54

Wow. So when they I don't know how long did it take for you to be able to or for them to feel comfortable letting you get out of bed and like try walking around. Did were you in a wheelchair at first?

Thomas 1:24:06

Yeah, so um I I you know went from the ICU to the step-down unit, and then uh on my my 21st birthday in late September, I started uh physical therapy. Um and after that, it would have been about two more months of regular physical therapy before I was uh you know more mobile. Um I think I ended up going home on leave around like Thanksgiving in November. And wow, so in again, about two months, I went from fully immobile, you know, can't wipe myself, can't shower, can't, you know, walk, do anything, to like they were comfortable with me, you know, going home. And I, you know, flew back home and got super drunk around Thanksgiving. Uh but yeah, it it it felt like it definitely felt like longer at the time, of course. Just that whole like, you know, every day is a is a a healing process, you know, every day is a new, like, oh like today I'm gonna try to get myself out of bed and you know, learn how to shower again for the first time.

Hunter 1:25:20

So I want to get into that, but first of all, not specifically the showering, but specifically like what mental aspects were involved with your healing. But before that, had the doctors told you anything in particular about your prospects? Like, did they, you know, were they like, oh, because sometimes they do this, right? They're like, you you may not be able to function quote unquote normally again, or you may have trouble hiking, or I don't know what. What do they tell you?

Thomas 1:25:46

Um, I honestly don't remember a whole lot of conversations with them uh of that nature. I the two I'm sure they I'm sure they happened. The two conversations I remember vividly were there was a nurse on the step down unit that um was kind of like the the textbook, like, you know, she was kind of like a hard ass, but she like you know meant well. And I don't remember like what even prompted this. I was probably like, I mean, I was I was miserable at the time, and I was probably just in a bad mood. Uh, but she gave me a talk and she was like, you know, you're actually I don't remember if she said blessed, but she said like something along the lines of like you have a chance to recover from this. Like you're young, you know, you're strong, you're healthy, you can bounce back. And I think that like pissed me off to the point where I was like, okay, yeah, like um pissed you off. Well, like I, you know, like I I probably wanted to just wallow at the time. Um, you know, I was still in a lot of like physical pain, and I didn't like I what probably prompted it was was I wasn't like doing the like the minuscule like arm and hand movements that I was supposed to be doing, or like I wasn't like um so she was saying it as like uh hey, I'm shak I gotta give you give you a little shake. Yeah, she she's like she's like you know, like just she was basically telling me to to like not to stop feeling sorry for myself, but to like realize that I wasn't gonna be in the hospital totally immobile forever. I think and I think I think like looking back even now, like that's probably what she meant. Is like she was saying like this is not this is not gonna be the rest of your life. Um the other conversation I remember was uh a couple, like maybe a month later, on the the physical therapy unit, um, was the first time I I had a visit from uh no, that's a lie. It wasn't the first time I had a visit from someone in the military. Uh the uh one of the generals from the special forces group at Fort Bragg that was in charge of this whole like training program came down to visit me several times. Uh and on one occasion he brought the unit's uh chaplain. And that was the first time I had a conversation about like my future in the military. Mm-hmm. And they basically said, like, at that time they were actually very encouraging. Uh I very much wanted to go back into um into special forces and and finish my training and and do all of that. And they were, you know, they basically said, like, hey, if you can physically perform, we'll take you back. Uh I don't remember around the same time. It must have been a doctor. I think a doctor was was someone who told me, like, hey, you might have life-changing physical limitations, like forever, because of like what we done. Because I don't think I, you know, I don't think they like walked me through like, hey, like, you know, we took all this out of your legs, it's it's gone before that point.

Hunter 1:29:04

In retrospect, do you feel how do you feel now about what that nurse had said to you? Do you feel like it was good to hear that it helped you?

Thomas 1:29:13

Probably, honestly, it's it's like I I I say it's something I remember, but it's it's just one of those things that like I randomly remember this moment. I don't I I guess it did have an impact on me because I remember it. Um I guess yeah, I would say like I feel good about it. Like, you know, it probably at the time it was probably something I needed to hear because you know, I had just spent months like totally helpless in a hospital bed in, you know, varying degrees of extreme physical discomfort and you know, boredom and misery from you know not being able to like even feed myself at this point.

Hunter 1:29:53

Yeah. I can't imagine what that was like. That's a nice gesture, though. Uh that the general came to visit multiple times, you said. Yeah. Shows some pretty genuine care on his part, I think. Did you feel that way?

Thomas 1:30:07

Absolutely. And I I kept in contact with him and a couple other people from uh that that group. Um I even went to one of the retirement uh retirement parties in 2019. Um got a random invitation. I was like, you know, I I I'll go to that. Uh yeah, it was a it was a nice gesture. Um the chaplain from the unit particularly was there, I think probably every other weekend at least. You know, it was a three, four-hour drive up from Bragg, but he always made time to come up and and you know, talk to my mom, talk to my family, talk to me.

Hunter 1:30:42

So you said that at the time maybe you didn't fully realize like the extent of what had happened to your legs, like with the muscle being gone. Um was that like the what what was the healing process like? You said right before I had changed the topic, you were saying you had to like relearn how to shower into I don't I don't know, like uh what all did you have to do uh that was new or relearn basically?

Thomas 1:31:08

I mean, at that point everything. Uh part of the part of the the physical therapy I was going through was literally like pick up this pick up a block and turn it in your hand because all of my my muscles had atrophied so bad from the the combination of disuse, like laying in bed for a month, and then the dialysis as well, like completely drained all the the strength. I mean, like like I I I'll show you the picture. I had like sticks for arms and legs. Like I I I both physically didn't have the the strength to like lift my arm and feed myself, or like, you know, like I couldn't even roll over in bed for a long time.

Hunter 1:31:54

Wow.

Thomas 1:31:55

So like I had like, you know, the physical therapy was everything from, you know, get up and and walk. And you know, I was walking with uh an IV bag attached, and you know, there was someone like behind me holding my my shirt and belt to make sure I didn't fall over. And you know, then there were days where I would go into like a room and they would have like uh like kids' toys, and they would have me pick up like a ring and like turn it around and then like put it to get back, you know, start training like the the you know the the dexterity and like the pan motions of you know what you consider like normal activity.

Hunter 1:32:35

Wow. I didn't realize this part exactly. I don't think you've mentioned this to me in prior conversations that it was not just your legs that you know that you had to rework, but your whole body. So initially, I'm sitting across for those, you know, you obviously can't see people who are listening, but I'm sitting across from a really buff guy. So he's you know, you're really it like I keep going back to you have gone on all the hardest trips I've gone on, all the hardest ones I can think of. You were there with me. Um, so it's just such an inspiring comeback. Uh, was it something was a lot of the healing process mental and that you felt a drive to be able to like get back to the things you love to do and how much of it was mental versus just the little physical acts that you said with like these rings and the the toys or whatever. That's the physical side, but I don't know, just walk me through what was going through your mind in terms of motivation.

Thomas 1:33:29

Honestly, probably um what one of the things that saved my mental state at the time was the idea of going back. Um, you know, that was what I had decided was my purpose in life at the at that time. Um, you know, I had spent years, basically the last, you know, three years of my life like leading up to going to selection. And uh, you know, that was what I decided like that was gonna be my my driving force for for getting better and for you know returning to returning to life as a as a soldier. Um so the like the mental stuff, yes, was hard. Um the worst parts, you know, again were just laying in the hospital, being bored, being being helpless. But um after I started like being more and more physically able, uh, you know, like my mental health improved, you know, exer exercise and and and freedom of of movement obviously made things better. And you know, obviously there were still times when I was depressed over it and you know disparaged my my state in life. Um the full healing process, I guess I should elaborate on this. Uh the initial healing process was you know, August to November when I was when I started like being able to walk around again and you know, feed myself and whatever normally. Uh in December of that year, I had another batch of of surgeries, which I don't know if you want to get into that now, but that was when they went in and took out like the chunks of my calf muscle. So uh post injury in August, I was unable to dorsal flex my feet at all.

Hunter 1:35:27

And which is flex up.

Thomas 1:35:29

Yeah, so I wasn't able to like I can't like point my toes up into this, up into the air uh because of the muscle that I lost. Uh and not only that, but I had this condition, have this condition called foot drop, where your toes like literally like they just dangle. Like there's no there's nothing there, like keeping your foot level.

Hunter 1:35:51

Because that front muscle is what keeps it stable when you lift your leg up?

Thomas 1:35:55

Well, not not only does it allow for flexion, but it it like you know, if you if you pick your foot up off the ground, your foot doesn't like dangle down completely. Like there's some level of like, you know, like it, it's it's it's level um with with the ground. And I didn't have that at all. So it was very like I had to I had to basically do like a high knee movement to walk around in those early months.

Hunter 1:36:19

Um to avoid basically having your toes scrape the yes, the ground.

Thomas 1:36:24

Yeah, like I I tripped over like everything. Um so in December of that year. Yeah, December. Um, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. This I'm thinking of a different surgery. You're good. Uh in June of the following year, June or May of the following year, so about a year out from the initial injury, I had uh extensive surgery where they went in and they cut open the back of my calf on both sides and basically took out my entire calf muscle, and they took out some of like a big tendon there, and they wrapped that muscle around my shin bone, and they tied the muscle and they tied the tendon off to the points that were like I had lost things, and they were hoping that that would give me the ability to uh manipulate, you know, like to dorsal flex again. Um it didn't, but what it did do is it fixed the the drop foot that I was having, so I don't have like good control over my my ankles now, but they at least like don't don't droop down as badly as they they were.

Hunter 1:37:37

So that allows you to be able to walk without your feet being obstacles, basically.

Thomas 1:37:43

Yes, yeah. Um and that also yeah, like I I had uh some very like basic like plastic braces at in that first year that were just like a solid piece of like it was just like an L-shaped piece of plastic. It ran down the back of my calf and it like went under my foot. The the the subsequent surgery a year later allowed them the it gave me the flexibility to wear more complicated braces that like actually like had a joint and like you know helped help to move my feet a little bit more. Um because the the muscle that I lost, you know, can't can't be rebuilt, but the the the balancing act of of taking stuff from my calves made my calves weaker, but it you know it it made my my ankles a little more stable. I just made you know balanced things out a little bit more.

Hunter 1:38:42

So did it take a while to get used to I would assume the new feeling of walking that way, like with kind of just getting in used to your body again after they did that surgery?

Thomas 1:38:52

Kind of. Um I think the the worst part about that surgery honestly was I had you know I had spent a year like learning how to walk and and you know exercise at this point. And I was you know kind of back to like, oh, like I can, you know, function normally. And I had the first of those surgeries in in May of, you know, again the following year in of May, in May of 2017, and then uh I was right back into the wheelchair, and then like I like it must have been a month or two later. So they didn't do both legs at once, they did one leg and then they did the other leg. So you're talking like five months, six years. Yeah. So I was I was back in the wheelchair for like another another six months, uh, and that was kind of another gut check where I, you know, had kind of healed, and then I was just straight back to like, okay, I you know, can't walk and can't go to the gym again, can't travel easily.

Hunter 1:39:48

Uh how important is it or was it for you to follow the instructions of the doctors in healing? Because I think so many of us out in the world are just like kind of we approach those instructions or recommendations a bit flippantly. We're like, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah. Did you follow them?

Thomas 1:40:05

I I want to say yes, for the most part, I did. Um I I had a really good relationship with uh my orthopedic surgeon at the time. Um, this was so I had these subsequent surgeries at uh Walter Reed Um in DC. And that was where I spent, I guess, the majority of my time um, you know, in a hospital environment was at Walter Reed. I spent about two and a half years there. Uh and my orthopedic surgeon was really cool. You know, he he was uh a Navy guy and was just like, you know, just like just friendly enough that like I wanted to do what he told me to do. And again, my whole my whole mentality at this point was still, I'm gonna heal and I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna be a Green Beret. So whatever, like whatever that looks like is you know, whatever it takes to do that is what I'm gonna do. Um I don't I don't really remember. I that's a lie. Again, I do remember actually actively disobeying orders at one point from a doctor. Uh it wasn't um the first surgery, but the second surgery. Uh I, you know, I was again like basically completely immobile, um, had a wheelchair, uh, but like, you know, couldn't couldn't really take care of myself too easily. So a friend of mine uh drove up from Fort Bragg to stay with me for like a week or so, like the the day of the surgery, you know, he came up and uh he like a few days after that, he convinced me that I was uh healthy enough to go to the base gym. And so like we went in and were like, like I was I I had one leg that was super weak from a surgery that had happened, you know, three months ago, and the other leg was in like a full body cast. I had a uh a fluid draining device, it was like a little suction thing that was like actively pulling stuff out of my out of the wound out of the surgery site. Um I was very immobile. I should not have been in the gym. Uh and um I I didn't do anything crazy, but I I was doing like, you know, like bicep curls or whatever. And at one point I was like going back out. We were leaving. I was going back outside, and I was like trying to crutch my way through a doorway by myself without asking for help because I, you know, I wanted to do, yeah, I wanted to do everything on my own. And I was I like pushed open this door and like stumbled through the doorway, and the guy that caught me and like helped me stand back up after falling on my leg was the surgical assistant.

Hunter 1:42:53

Oh my god.

Thomas 1:42:54

So it wasn't like the doctor himself, but it was a guy who had like seen me being cut open like you know, a week ago, and he was like, You should not be in here.

Hunter 1:43:06

Um what are the odds? I swear some of these things that happened in life was like this has to be a simulation because yeah, this hasn't been programmed into the narrative. That's hilarious.

Thomas 1:43:16

No, I I remember like falling full on the floor and thinking, like, oh, I just hurt my leg. I wanna, you know, if I just pop my stitches or something, and I look up and I'm like, oh, like that's the one person I did not want to see.

Hunter 1:43:31

Gosh. So as you're healing and you know, this six-month period where you're back in the wheelchair, I know that you love reading. I know you I know you love to read fantasy and sci-fi specifically because I see the books you read when we're on backpacking trips. Was that something you were able to lean into or found kind of as something as meaningful throughout your healing process?

Thomas 1:43:53

Yeah. Um I don't remember if there was like, well, I I will say when I first woke up in the hospital and like couldn't, you know, couldn't feed myself or do anything on my own, uh, my parents came and they were rereading. I had read uh Starship Troopers at that point. I don't remember how many years ago, but I I think I must have mentioned wanting to reread it because my my dad would come and like he would read passages from Starship Troopers to me. Um after that, I don't really remember like having one particular series that I read like throughout the rest of the time. Um you know, I'm sure I read like I reread things, like I reread Lord of the Rings, I reread some of Harry Potter, I read uh, you know, like the books I had enjoyed as a kid.

Hunter 1:44:46

Um was casually rereading multiple I had a lot of time multiple books series.

Thomas 1:44:52

Yeah. I mean, you know, you can do a lot of reading in two and a half years when you have nothing else that you can really do. Um but no, I think besides Starship Troopers, I don't there's not one series that like stands out in from my mind at from that, you know just generally like reading as a pastime, yeah.

Hunter 1:45:14

Yeah was it like was it cathartic a little bit to be able to go into other worlds at some periods and just kind of escape, yes.

Thomas 1:45:22

I I the other the two things I did as a kid were were read and and play outside. Um if I wasn't playing outside, I was probably curled up with a book. Like those were my two my two hobbies growing up. So yeah, I definitely like um I I remember getting like the Google Playbooks app on my phone at one point and just like devouring books. Like, you know, they have they would have like a deal where you could get like a you know a novel that was some like cheap unknown fantasy book for you know a few bucks, and I would I tore through a couple dozen of them, probably outside of the you know, the the rereading of my favorite series. Just on your phone? Yeah, yeah.

Hunter 1:46:07

See, and then people see you and they're like, these dang kids are always on their phones. Little do they know that you're out there reading books one after the other? Uh did it yeah. I mean, you're not you're known to bring books on backpacking trips because you bring heavy things like cantaloupes, right? What's what's a book if you're gonna bring just kidding. So, what advice would you have for people? I don't know if you've thought about this before, but for people that experience kind of intense or some might even say traumatic injuries like this and wonder if they're gonna be able to get back into what it is that they love? I know that's a tough question to put into words. Sure.

Thomas 1:46:48

Um answer, I mean. I yes, uh I guess I uh like I have thought about it and I realize I just I honestly don't feel like I have anything like that. It doesn't have to be profound, yeah.

Hunter 1:47:03

Um doesn't have to be a quote people frame on their wall.

Thomas 1:47:08

I've always felt like I was lucky in the sense that uh like when I got injured and when I was going through this like recovery process, I had like the mentality of like, again, I had I had a purpose that I wanted to get back to. And I was like, you know, this like I had spent the last couple years of my life like thinking this is something that's like hard, and it's like I want to do it to to prove to myself that I can do it, you know, as a as a personal challenge, as a professional challenge, whether that was you know the military or whatever. Um, and at the time, I like you know, I had that like driving force of like like I I got kicked to the curb, but I don't want it to you know stop here. I like I want my my next step is gonna be to like be better and be stronger than I was in the past. Um and I think like that mentality like saved me in the the recovery process and like being able to say like you know, I I lost out on something, but I can like I can use this time as like a challenge to prove to myself that like I will survive and get better from this. And I guess like that's that's what I would say is like if you can think of it as like you know, like normal, normal day-to-day life is not, you know, we're not out here fighting for survival. If you can frame uh something as a challenge to yourself to say, like, oh yeah, like this is gonna prove that I'm like, you know, tougher than you know, normal life or whatever, I think that is that is how I how I related to it at the time, at least was was, you know, I saw it as uh again like a a challenge to overcome because that was what I wanted was I wanted, you know, I wanted to not prove that I was the best at everything, but to prove that I could be better than I had been, or you know, like and to to overcome something difficult.

Hunter 1:49:24

Yeah, you had your sight set on something and you didn't it doesn't sound like you limited what you believed you were capable of accomplishing ultimately, which it's admirable, it's inspiring to hear. And did you did you ever think you'd

Moving to Arizona & Thomas's Future

Hunter 1:49:40

end up moving to Arizona?

Thomas 1:49:42

No, um I uh again growing up I I kind of hated the uh the hot southeast um and and knew and I kind of liked the cold. So no, if you had told me at the time that I would end up in Arizona, I would have said you were crazy. I honestly still don't know how that happened, but uh it is it is it is nicer than than the humidity, definitely. I think the humidity is probably my still my worst enemy. Yeah, that's humidity is rough.

Hunter 1:50:13

Um but you've been out here for five years. Ish years, yeah.

Thomas 1:50:19

And six six this July. Well so I'll I'll be just short of six years.

Hunter 1:50:25

Oh, that's right. Yes. I'm miscalculating in my head, forgetting it's uh 2026. It happens. Um, and so what is your system now for being comfortable on long hikes given you know your unique leg situation?

Thomas 1:50:43

The two honestly, the two biggest game changers for me were uh both happened on my my first solo backpacking trip was in in Scotland. Um I did a hundred miles on the West Highland way, and uh I I guess I hadn't really like up until that point, like post-injury, I had you know done a lot of physical activity. I was back, you know, like at the gym frequently. I would bike ride around uh town. Um, but I hadn't done any backpacking, and I was very nervous about uh, you know, the prospect of being on my feet for that long. And at one point, like during that, I think like the second day of that hike, I realized I could take, and this is a very personal thing, you know, it's not gonna be applicable. I realized I could take the soles out of my shoes and put them between my feet and the the hard plastic of the of the brace that I wear. Uh and that like just changed my life because before I had, you know, I was whenever I was walking, I was just standing on like hard plastic versus, you know, like a padded shoe. Um, the other thing I started doing is I double layer every sock. Like, even if it's like a full wool sock, I'll pull like a thin athletic sock over it. And that helps with like, well, I went from having like constant blisters or you know, like just general discomfort to never having that.

Hunter 1:52:15

So you're saying that on all these hikes you've been on, basically, whereas I at least have uh inch and a half of rubber cushion under my sole by the sole of my boot, you have the sole of your boot, and then immediately under that uh sheet of hard plastic. Yes. So you're basically walking on I don't know, what is a sole a sole of a shoe, like half like a quarter inch thick, if that probably, unless it's really luxury or something like that. And then a hard surface.

Thomas 1:52:47

Yeah, so um the I I I bought these, you know, these boots in in 2019 for this hike, and I think I used the soles from those boots uh probably daily until they like completely disintegrated because you know they were nice like hiking, hiking in soles for, you know, I got a nicer pair of hiking boots. But yeah, the the the you know the cushioned sole is is the only thing between me and like that you know that hard piece of plastic from the brace, which you know for me it was it was like the most comfortable thing in the world after after spending years, uh, you know, two, three years at that point, like learning how to stand on a piece of plastic all day or you know, walk on a piece of plastic whenever I wanted to to do to move to do anything.

Hunter 1:53:40

Wow. And just so people understand the the contraption here, I'm just looking at you know your shoes off in the corner behind you, and essentially it's like you were saying earlier, a flat piece of plastic that goes supposedly goes underneath the sole of your shoe, kind of goes in from the heel and then goes in under the sole, and then comes up is what I'm seeing to wrap around your calf, and therefore your calf, via the way it's wrapped around your leg, supports your foot from underneath, basically.

Thomas 1:54:09

So there's a full, yeah, there's a full like foot curved piece of plastic that goes under my foot. Uh the ankle has a a small hinge with uh a little bit of like elastic or not elastic, uh poly something plastic, um, to give it a little bit of spring, and then yeah, a big uh cup shape piece of half cup shaped piece of plastic that goes around my calf, and then is secured by a strap running over my shin. And that just you know, that makes my feet a little more stable, makes it easier to uh walk, run, hike.

Hunter 1:54:53

So does that cause blisters because it's a piece of plastic rubbing against the back of your leg constantly? Um or is is it like do you have giant calluses now?

Thomas 1:55:02

No, I'm just kidding. I I do. I I have uh two insane calluses on the back of both my heels. I used to have really bad either calluses or blisters on like the uh the sides of my my the outer part of my big toe and little toe from the the friction that would cause. But honestly, the the combination of of figuring out that I could fit like the sole of a shoe um on in there and double layering socks like made that a lot better and those kind of disappeared over time. But no, I still have I have crazy calluses on the back of my heels. Um the only problems I have like sporadically, uh the strap will sometimes like rub um rub at my shins if I don't use the there's like a padded section to it. Um but again most of the time it's it's super negligible. The only time it's like really annoying is is yeah, I'm on a hike if it starts, if it starts bothering me, then I'm like, ah, this is something I gotta deal with. But at that point, it's just you know, it's like mole skin and then do some maintenance when I get home.

Hunter 1:56:10

It's just so cool that you've found a way to function just like literally better than the vast majority of backpackers I've met. Better, not just like on par, uh, not even a little bit worse, but better. You you're fast, you go uphill, downhill, no problem. Never have I ever seen you uh encounter a challenge that, yeah, it's just it's just very inspiring, is what I'm trying to say. And I hope that you get that sensation. Uh, you know, not that you want to be talked up, I know you don't enjoy that, but what can I say? I think you deserve that as a as a good friend of mine, uh, to hear that out loud. I appreciate it. Yeah. Um, so you recently graduated from ASU, Arizona State University, with your degree in data science. And what are some of your short-term goals in life?

Thomas 1:57:03

So next week I am moving to Denver to finally get out of the desert. Um, very excited for that.

Hunter 1:57:10

Uh gonna spend a wonderful summer in the Rockies.

Thomas 1:57:14

Yep. Yeah, that's what I'm hoping. Uh get to do some some backpacking there uh this summer and fall versus suffering in the 110-degree weather here. Uh so short-term goals, you know, take care of that, um, get settled with the new job, and you know, then just see where uh this next stage of life leads, I guess.

Hunter 1:57:38

Yeah, you're specifically interested in uh things like space and GIS. What is can you explain what GIS is?

Thomas 1:57:45

GIS is uh geographic information systems, and it's the way I have experienced it is it is uh basically like mapping data onto physical locations. So the most popular uh software in GIS is called Arc GIS Pro, and it really is just like it's a it's a data mapping software where you can write programs and like you know, like imagine like computer coding, but you do that with a physical map, and you know, you can take all kinds of information and and program it, or like, you know, you can take like one set of maps and and do a function in ArcGIS where it will combine with another set of maps and another set of information to display something entirely new. So it is like it's a it's a map-making software that uses functions to like display whole new types of of data, and it it works really well with uh with data science, obviously.

Hunter 1:58:46

Yeah, sounds like a really good way to combine your degree in data science with your natural ability to use a compass and a map. You know, going back to like, I don't know. It just it's cool how people's life skills uh that who would whose trajectories go as far back as childhood, kind of shape what they end up doing as adults. So I think it fits you well, uh having known you, and sounds like a cool career to me. Cool area to work in. Um, and what are some of your long-term goals in life? Any bucket list items, any specific trips you want to do, any specific places you want to visit, experiences?

Thomas 1:59:27

Um, I mean, we've you know, yeah, we've talked about uh bucket list of countries. I think again, my top, my top two right now are uh Spain and probably Japan. Um would love to do, you know, Patagonia at some point. I'm gonna rely on you to do all the planning for that. Yeah, that's on my bucket list, yeah. Um yeah, I mean, you know, just keep keep finding those uh those next challenges for the outdoors, um, whether it's you know something in Colorado or something on the other side of the world. Um yeah, finding finding the next uh the next summit.

Hunter 2:00:07

I would imagine it would involve a summit of some sort, whether figuratively or literally.

Thomas 2:00:12

I'm trying to decide if the first week in Denver make the trip down to Pike's Peak finally. Yeah.

Hunter 2:00:17

Yeah, you should. You better start off the summer strong up there.

Thomas 2:00:21

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter 2:00:22

I am very glad that uh your life brought you to Arizona, I have to say. It's been a very fun six years. I kept saying five earlier in the conversation, but yeah, 2020. So that's a zero. Here's me doing math as the linguist. Going to six is six years. So, right? I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, it's been truly wonderful being on all these trips with you throughout the years. Um, and yeah, I just I hope we stay in touch, regardless of you living in Denver. It's not like it's the farthest place, and conveniently from Phoenix, flights back and forth to Denver are pretty affordable.

Thomas 2:00:59

So absolutely. I'm sure we'll we'll keep in touch and hopefully do some more fun backpacking trips. I might, you know, I'll have to I'll have to talk to um our mutual friend Ryan into into driving back down from Mount Baldi, hopefully this September again.

Hunter 2:01:13

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And thank you again for sharing all that about what you experienced. Uh, I know it's probably not the most fun thing to go back in and narrate because it requires you kind of jumping back into the memories and reliving them a little bit, as far as I imagine it. But nonetheless, I think it's an inspiring story for people to hear, an inspiring story for people who may have experienced similar, not not necessarily related to the legs, but similar in the sense that it's a difficult uh challenge to overcome. Inspiring for them to feel that they too can go back to the things they love. Uh if they set their mind to it. Of course, everybody's journey is different, but what you've taught me, at least through the stories you've told me about this, is that so much of healing and so much of getting back to what you want to do is the drive, is the motivation, is your determination. So thank you for that lesson out of the many that uh I feel like you've taught me as a friend.

Thomas 2:02:14

I appreciate it. You know, it's uh it's uh something that I, you know, can feel in a sense of pride over overcoming and continuing to overcome. So I never I I've never really minded talking about it, honestly, but I appreciate the uh the opportunity to. Yeah, for sure.

Hunter 2:02:31

All right. Well, hopefully one day I'll have you on again. But uh for now, uh we're gonna go ahead and wrap this up.

Thomas 2:02:39

Sounds good. All right.